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Speaker A: Hello.
Speaker B: Oh, hi.
Speaker A: I'm Emma. Um, I'm Shannon, and welcome to this podcast doesn't exist. OOH, I liked that.
Speaker B: Thanks.
Speaker A: We're in the same room this time. You guys. Guys, we're not in a closet. I've been taking a tour around my family's closets. I don't think I'm going to need to for any of the other Darn recording so I can't test out my brother's.
Speaker B: We'll save it for another special occasion, I suppose. I do feel like we are having a very formal business dinner.
Speaker A: I'm very far away from you. Like the Von Trapp children.
Speaker B: Yes. Um, one of us is a traveler that's been caught in a storm and has to stop at a Gothic castle or estate. It's Indiana Joe, and it's just like, please join me for dinner. And you're literally, like, 20ft away. Not Frankenstein, but in this scenario. But, uh, we're trying a new recording set up.
Speaker A: I have completely disheveled this room.
Speaker B: It's fine. It wasn't very aesthetically purposeful anyway.
Speaker A: No, it's utilitarian.
Speaker B: At least it's something.
Speaker A: You have pillows.
Speaker B: It's a mess is what it is.
Speaker A: It's fine. Well, before we get into it, I will say that this episode was suggested by one of my new friends. Hi, Christian. Um, he suggested that I look into this mystery, and so I decided to not only look into it, but to do it. If you have any suggestions of your own, please send them to us at this podcast doesn't Uh, we would love to hear your suggestions, your ghost stories. I would like to hear your ghost stories. Shannon would rather not, but if you've got some alien mysteries, your diner order, whatever you want to send us, we want to read, because we want to do a mailbag again. We haven't been able to do a mailbag in a little while, so feel free. Just talk to us, please. I'm lonely. Was it too far?
Speaker B: It's a little desperate. A little bit. Also, why are you lonely?
Speaker A: I'm not.
Speaker B: Miles is going to be offended. He's at the damn right now listening to this, and he's like, I'm literally going to go upstairs to my wife. Why is she lonely?
Speaker A: Maybe I'm not actually lonely. It just felt appropriate in the moment to say it felt like something that would fit within what I was saying.
Speaker B: We're just going to let that happen?
Speaker A: It might keep it rolling.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, it might not even make it in. We'll see that's because I have the power of editing on my side.
Speaker B: Well, if you would like to view any of the photos from today's, there are a lot. Or if you have suggestions and you'd rather DM us instead of email, that's cool. You can find us on Instagram at this podcast. Doesn't exist. Uh, we have a link in our bio there that will take you to our link tree. You can download our bingo card and play along. You can access the podcast on all sorts of different platforms, so it's a helpful little link if you're trying to share with family, friends, enemies, et cetera.
Speaker A: She said enemies, you guys.
Speaker B: It's just part of the branch. Yes.
Speaker A: Let me haunt people while I'm alive.
Speaker B: Okay, I will say we've been slacking on put it on the merch.
Speaker A: That's your realm.
Speaker B: Um, I know, but I guess I've just been so invested.
Speaker A: I'm really glad, though. Well, last time you were scared, but, yes, you have been invested.
Speaker B: That's true. That's true. But anyway, you can find all of that on our Instagram. Come and follow us. Like our photos. Comment uh, if you find any cool episode related stuff out in the wild, shout out to Jesse. Jesse's m awesome with that. They always, uh, tag us when they find related stuff. We appreciate it.
Speaker A: We love it.
Speaker B: Uh, and for the record, Christian, I'm waving to you. All right, what's going on now?
Speaker A: All right. Today, Shannon, we have something that involves a plane. So I am going to try and conquer my fear. There's no crashing. There's no awful thing that happens with the plane. Specifically, no one dies that we know of. Today, we are going to talk about DB. Cooper.
Speaker B: All right, well, let me bacilla yeah.
Speaker A: You got to strap into that first. You have a choice. Would you like to strap into the plane, or would you like to strap yourself to a parachute?
Speaker B: Um, can I do both?
Speaker A: Yes. Just in case.
Speaker B: All right, I'm just going to get it all over my shoulder, flip things, zip it. Is this a normal parachute, or is this a weird flying squirrel suit like they had on falcon, uh, in the winter? Oh, my God. Put on the flag scroll seat. Okay. Here I am. And then I'm also going to sit in my little plane seat, and I'm going to buckle it, and then I'm going to pull it low and tight across my lap.
Speaker A: Yes. Correct.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: All right. So almost 50 years ago, on the day before Thanksgiving, a man boarded a plane out of Oregon, headed to Seattle. In the middle of the flight, he flagged down an attendant and showed her the bomb in his bag.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: But this isn't even the most interesting part. That's my little blurb, like I always do. So let's talk about the beginning. Afternoon of November 24, 1971. A man approached the counter of the Northwest Orient Airlines in Portland to buy a oneway ticket to Seattle, Washington. He used cash, and he wrote his name down as Dan Cooper. He boarded the flight 305 and quietly sat in his seat, buttoned up in a black tie and white shirt under his business suit, and ordered a bourbon and soda. While waiting for the flight to take off, he was described as in his mid 40s, white, with a pointed nose and chin and dark hair. The flight took off a third full so with 36 passengers plus the six on the crew. So this is not a full flight. People are kind of sitting far apart from each other.
Speaker B: And is this a standard?
Speaker A: Like, this is an airline 727. So this is like a normal passenger airline that we fly. Got you now. Um, so the attendants did their normal checks and took their seats. And Florence Schaffner, the attendant sitting in the jump seat closest to the businessman, saw him looking at her. He reached into his pocket and handed her a note. She thought it was the phone number of a lonely guy because it happened a lot. So she dropped it into her nearby purse. He looked confused and leaned towards her and whispered, quote, miss, you'd better look at that note. I have a bomb. Can you imagine that? You're like, oh, this lonely dude, I'm.
Speaker B: Getting hit on again. And it's like, oh, actually, no, you might die.
Speaker A: Oh, um, no. So the stunned attendant picked the note out of her purse and unfolded it. She stated it said basically that there was a bomb in his briefcase. So he basically just wrote on a note, I have a bomb, and handed it to her. The man mentioned for her to come sit next to him. And so she fearfully did, because she's like, um, I don't know, you might not just have a bomb. I'm going to do what you say. He took the note that he had handed her, and she asked him quietly if she could see the bomb. Like, jeez, girl.
Speaker B: Well, okay, but also, this is what, like, the 1971. So I don't know what training was like back then. Uh, obviously it was a different world pre 911. But, you know, flight attendants are trained to go through crisis, whether it's like a water landing or, um, something's wrong with the plane. So maybe she was like, well, before we figure out what you're working with, because maybe it could have been just a mentally ill passenger who didn't you know what I mean? Open the bag and it's like a chain or whatever.
Speaker A: A chicken?
Speaker B: Like a rubber chicken or a real chicken? No, a rubber chicken. It's a rubber chicken tied up in a slinky with some duct tape, and.
Speaker A: You squeeze it and go, help me.
Speaker B: Because that's a different situation than a literal that's fair.
Speaker A: In my mind, I was like, you're being the bravest. Which, in truth, yeah, flight attendants are pretty dang brave. I mean, they're in a plane all the time.
Speaker B: You, uh, have to go to work on one of those every day. Why would I do that? Uh, you get to travel.
Speaker A: See, I enjoy that, but I crave the day of teleportation without losing limbs or my life or brain.
Speaker B: That would be nice.
Speaker A: I want that. Well, Miles, get working on that. You might just be a trained conductor now, babe, but you could you could do transportation. You could I believe in you.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. What if we're, like, in our ninety s and riding a train or going on an airplane are, like, vintage hipster things to do? Or sitting around telling our grandkids, well, back in my day, I would take the old Amtrak from Lynchburg to Newark, and they're like, oh, Grandma, that's so wild.
Speaker A: Snapped their fingers.
Speaker B: So, aesthetic, you rode a terrain. Wow.
Speaker A: Did you look at a MAPE as well? A mate. A mate.
Speaker B: Did you have a TikT Tiquet to quit? It is not that funny. But it is. But it so is. All right, continued. She asked to see the bomb. Where are we? What happened?
Speaker A: So, obviously, this man wanted to prove to her that his threat was good. And so the man acquiesced and opened the case long enough for her to glimpse eight red cylinders stacked four on top of four, a large cylindrical battery, and red insulation around the wires attached. The red cylinders. Just a lot of red. A lot of red, buddy.
Speaker B: Danger.
Speaker A: Yeah, I guess. He quickly closed the case and told her his demands. He wanted $200,000 in, quote, negotiable American currency, which we'll get into later, because I have no clue what that means.
Speaker B: Are you an alien?
Speaker A: Right. What does it even mean? Um, he wanted four parachutes, and he wanted a fuel truck for the plane when it arrived in Seattle. So he wasn't trying to divert the plane as it was right now. He wanted it to go to its destination, mhm. So at this point, Florence is m starting to panic a bit, like, no doubt. And the man calms her down, telling her that she should go tell the pilots his demands and that it will all be okay. And it soothes her enough that she gets up. This is your fault, buddy.
Speaker B: Okay?
Speaker A: So Florence calm down enough to get to the cockpit and tell the pilot and copilot what was happening when she returned to her seat, the jump seat. The man had put on dark sunglasses, which is like, it's a little late.
Speaker B: Budge.
Speaker A: He knows your face. I think it was probably one of those moments where he's, like, talking to her. Talking to her. She leaves and he goes, oh, crap. It's a pivotal part of my plan.
Speaker B: Every actor has had that moment when you're on stage and you realize that there's something you should have done before you came on stage. I just think we remember in 12th Night at the beginning of the show as Viola, I was a girl, right? I got sick, blah, blah, blah. And then I go and I put on go, um, put on boy clothes. And I was supposed to put my hair up in a ponytail like boys do. Yeah, I had those Luscious Renaissance Locks. You did. And I just remember sitting on because the next scene when I'm in my boy clothes, I'm sitting on the floor pretending to be, like, a servant. Dude, just, like, listening. And I distinctly remember looking down and I could see my hair hanging down, and I was like, I forgot that, uh and as soon as I came off stage, it was like, it might have been Malora or maybe just the stage manager being like, Cheryl and Malora said I was like, I know, I'm aware. I couldn't do anything because once you're on stage, you don't want to do it. Yeah, right. Like, they always tell you, don't touch your hair. Don't touch your costume unless it's like a specific character choice. So I was like, well, if I do anything now, it will draw attention to the fact that it was down in the first place.
Speaker A: Yes. And you've already said things, so it's not like you're just coming out and like, haha, I've just put myself together. No, you're in the middle of a scene.
Speaker B: Anyway, uh, he forgot his pivotal prop.
Speaker A: Of sunglasses to disguise his face, which at this point, it's like, already too late. Like, why even but whatever. So the pilot contacted air traffic control, who in turn let the local authorities in Seattle know what was happening. So over the inflight intercom, the pilot told the passengers that they were going to be delayed due to minor mechanical difficulties, which during your flight, saying minor mechanical difficulties is not all that's not minor there's mechanical difficulties on the plane while you're flying. That's not okay, so that's scarier than scarier than a bomb.
Speaker B: I'm not into that. I was like, just lie to me.
Speaker A: Tell me.
Speaker B: It's the weather.
Speaker A: Yeah, seriously, just lie to me.
Speaker B: I don't know anything about anything. Just tell me. Just lie.
Speaker A: It also makes no sense to say minor mechanical difficulties because the flight had to circle over Puget Sound for 2 hours to allow the Seattle police and the FBI time to get all of the demands covered and get emergency personnel together. So if you have minor mechanical difficulties, why would you be flying around for an extra 2 hours?
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: Who's having the m mechanical difficulties, the plane or the, uh, airport? Like, what better to just lie and.
Speaker B: Say it's raining in Seattle. You can just say, oh, weather conditions. We have to, like, we have to.
Speaker A: Take a couple of turns around, take.
Speaker B: A couple of laps, like you do. That's interesting, though, that they immediately were going to fulfill his demands.
Speaker A: Well, he does technically have a plane of almost 41 people.
Speaker B: Right. But I feel like in a lot of the television shows that I watch on CBS that are definitely geared for, like, 45 year old men and me.
Speaker A: And, uh, you you're a 45 year old man on the inside, aren't you?
Speaker B: I mean get off my lawn.
Speaker A: She steps to the squirrels.
Speaker B: Get off my lawn. Can't. What was I saying? Oh, I feel like a lot of the times in those situations, they tell the terrorists, yes, but the fact that they are actually working to gather the money. Instead of saying, yes, we will totally gather that negotiable American currency for you. And then when they land, they're like, swarms haha. We got you.
Speaker A: Yeah. But remember, this is passenger air flight is still fairly in its infancy in terms of security, and hijacking planes has only recently come to be a thing. Actually, after this incident, there were a lot of Copycats M, and there's just people hijacking planes with, like, pretend boss.
Speaker B: They're rubber chicken slingy. Yes, exactly.
Speaker A: Um, so the president of the airline approved the $200,000 ransom. I didn't look up to see how much money that is in today's money, but my guess is somewhere around a million, because this is interesting that it's.
Speaker B: The airline and not, um, law enforcement. Yeah.
Speaker A: I wonder if it had to do with the fact that it was, like, international Air or something like that. I have no clue. Uh, so at one point, flight attendant Tina Muklow recalls the man looking out of the window and saying, quote, looks like Tacoma down there, end quote. As they flew over Tacoma, he also correctly said that the Seattle Tacoma airport was a 20 minutes drive to the McCord Air Force Base. At the time, that was where McCord used to be. And now it's moved. Mauklow was surprised that he knew the area so well. And she also said, quote, he wasn't nervous. He seemed rather nice. He was never cruel or nasty. He was thoughtful and calm all the time. Which at this point, hijacking, uh, isn't necessarily common. But the hijackings that have happened before this are like men brandishing guns and being like, take me to Cuba and give me all your money, like, that kind of stuff. Um, whereas this guy sitting in a suit and tie like, give me your money.
Speaker B: That's it.
Speaker A: Please, or I will blow us all to smithereens.
Speaker B: But I'd rather not. But could you just give me some negotiable appearances?
Speaker A: Uh, just interesting choice of words, my dude. All right. So this man was polite, soft spoken, kind, and tried to keep everyone calm. He also ordered another bourbon and soda and paid his drink tab trying to give Mucklow the extra change. And she refused it. She was like, Keep it. He also offered to get the crew meals when they all landed in Seattle.
Speaker B: Dude, I don't think they're going to want to hang out with you.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: Maybe this is just a gigantic ploy to make friends. But he has no clue.
Speaker B: We cannot go doing this. I know you're lonely. If we have it on the record that you're lonely, but please don't go hijacking a plane in order to I.
Speaker A: Would never hijack a plane. Hijacked maybe a train.
Speaker B: Don't say that on the record.
Speaker A: That's true. I wouldn't, actually. I have no reason to. But I have also no reason to hijack a plane because I hate playing.
Speaker B: This is true.
Speaker A: I wouldn't do that. Especially in the way that he ends up doing this. No, thank you. So the ransom was pulled together in $10,020 bills, which each were microfilled so that they had some kind of record of the serial numbers. The man also demanded that the military issue parachutes they had collected for him on the ground were to be exchanged for civilian ones so that they had to get some from the local skydiving school. Which besides a local skydiving school in Seattle. He wanted the manually operated rip cords on the parachutes instead of the military grade ones. Which have both a manual and one that at a certain altitude. Just like. Open.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: At least so far as I found. Miles, if you would like to correct me, feel free. I can say nothing with confidence on this. It was found later that of the four parachutes that they gave him, one of them was a dummy unit. Usable? No, it was unusable, but marked as unusable that any experienced skydiver could see was non functional. So I think it had like a specific symbol on it that told skydivers that this specific pack is unusable. It had a rip cord that didn't actually pull anything.
Speaker B: But why does that exist?
Speaker A: I don't know. I thought about that too, and I have no clue why it exists unless it's just it must be for you.
Speaker B: To show how to put it on.
Speaker A: Maybe and demonstrate this is how you pull the record without.
Speaker B: The flight attendants have their demonstration purposes like that.
Speaker A: That has to be it. I can't understand why else it would exist, but it has to be.
Speaker B: I would hope you would keep that one, like, in the classroom on the ground and not in the plane.
Speaker A: Right. They gathered this for him. The inclusion of the dummy one was accidental, so they didn't try to do that. But it must have been like a closet. So they're like, pulling these like the police want the police want these.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: But that's noted because it wasn't left over. He took the dummy one with him. But the reason they think that he wanted four was so that they wouldn't give him all messed up ones because of the possibility that he might take a hostage with him.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: So I think he was trying to play the game, but interesting nonetheless. So finally, at 05:39 p.m.. The plane landed at the Seattle Tacoma airport. It was about an hour after sunset, and the man told the pilot, Scott, to get the jet to a brightly lit section of the apron, which I had no idea that that was what the, uh, asphalt of the plane where it drives.
Speaker B: I'm sorry, what? Uh, I thought there was, like, runway and then apron is separate.
Speaker A: It is, but it's like that part of the runway that is larger. So it's where all of them are. And then the runway is the space that they use in order to either take off for land.
Speaker B: Okay, so the part where you're taxiing between your gate and the actual runway.
Speaker A: I believe that is called the apron, but I have no clue that's what it was called. Thank you for muddling through that with me. Um, so Scott was told get the jet to a brightly lit section of the apron and then to close all of the window shades that potential snipers couldn't take a safe shot. Um, so he's thinking this through.
Speaker B: Smart.
Speaker A: The operations manager for the airport dropped off the knapsack with the money and parachutes by the stairs to Tina Muchlow. And once the man confirmed that his demands had been met, he ordered all of the passengers, florence Shaftner and senior flight attendant Alice Hancock, to leave the plane. So the people who were left were the cockpit crew, which included pilot Scott Copilot Ratts'nick rattansnick, I'm so sorry. And flight engineer Harold E. Anderson, as well as flight attendant Tina Mutclo. So he has all these people HM with him on the plane and lets everyone else leave safely.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: What were you going to say?
Speaker B: Just poor Tina.
Speaker A: Ah, I know, right?
Speaker B: Why didn't you take Florence? He talked to her first.
Speaker A: Right. I feel so bad, but I'm sure too, that after dealing with all of this, the likelihood that they were like, okay, we don't think that he's actually going to hurt us, is pretty high.
Speaker B: Right. Well, he's been very chill the whole time.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: If he's letting the other passengers go, that implies that if they just help him out, then they'll be fine. Yeah.
Speaker A: So the man was very specific about the flight plan he intended to take. So while the plane refueled, he spoke to the crew about what he wanted. And I copy pasted this from Wikipedia because it was so specific. Mhm, and it just seemed like the most concise space because the FBI space that has all this kind of stuff on it didn't give me anything that was concise. So here we go. From the mother source, a southeast course towards Mexico City at the minimum air speed possible without stalling the aircraft at a maximum 10,000 ft altitude. He further specified that the landing gear remain deployed in the takeoff and landing position, the wing flaps to be lowered 15 degrees and the cabin remain unpressurized. Copilot RA Tadsnack informed Cooper that the aircraft's range was limited to approximately one 0 mile under the specified flight configuration, which meant that a second refueling would be necessary before entering Mexico. Cooper and the crew discussed options and agreed on reno Nevada as a refueling stop. Cooper further directed that the aircraft take off with the rear exit door open and its staircase extended. Northwest's Home Office objected on grounds that it was unsafe to take off with the aft, uh, staircase deployed. Cooper countered that it was indeed safe, but he would not argue the point. He would lower it once they were airborne. This is all very specific.
Speaker B: He knows his way around a plane. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: So he definitely knows what he's talking about. And the fact that they had a little discussion, we were like, um, so we need to stop somewhere.
Speaker B: Where do we stop? Where do you want to stop?
Speaker A: Oh, Renovate.
Speaker B: Reno. Well, I love that the airline was like, um, so it's not safe to take off with a staircase.
Speaker A: Meanwhile, he's like, yeah, it is. But you know what? I'm not going to.
Speaker B: I won't do it when I'm up there. It's so simple. Okay.
Speaker A: Very odd. So after a vapor lock was fixed on the aircraft and it was completely refueled, the plane again took off. At about 07:40 p.m., two F 106 fighter pilots or fighter planes were scrambled up from McCord Air Force Base and followed behind the aircraft, one above and one below, so that the man couldn't see them out of any of the plane windows, which I think is very smart.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: There was also a plane diverted to the emergency from another mission from the Air National Guard. But it ran low on fuel and quickly turned around. So they were like, um, can you go check on this? Yeah, sure, I can't stay.
Speaker B: Sorry.
Speaker A: Bye.
Speaker B: Sorry, guys.
Speaker A: So Muckle was told by the man to stay in the cockpit with the rest of the crew and keep the door closed. As she did so, she noticed the man tying something around his waist, which she guessed was the money bag, and closed the door. So let's talk about the jump. So around 08:00 P.m., a warning light came on in the cockpit showing that the aft air stair had been activated. Copilot Ruth Neck got on the intercom and asked, quote, everything okay back there? Anything we can do for you?
Speaker B: This is the most polite hijacking of, um, all time.
Speaker A: And the man yelled back calmly, no, no, I'm good.
Speaker B: Homie. Thank you. You have a good one. Say hi to your mom.
Speaker A: Uh so the crew noticed soon after that that there was a change in air pressure in the cabin, which meant that the aft door must have been opened. So the staircase opens without the door being open. At, uh, 08:13 P.m., the plane's tail suddenly swept upward, large enough of a movement to require the pilot to take measures to bring it back to level flight. Because it was really sudden. It just kicked up and he had to maneuver it. It wasn't until about 1015 that they were able to land at the Reno airport in Nevada. When they did, the airstare was still deployed. All sorts of law enforcement surrounded the plane, from FBI to sheriff's deputies, as no one knew if the man was still on board. Like, they don't know if maybe he just decided not to jump. A quick armed search, though, determined that he had for sure jumped out of the plane. So all of his belongings are gone. He's gone and two of the parachutes are gone.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: So now what? The FBI got to work on an investigation finding 66 unidentified fingerprints in the cabin of the plane. The man's black clipon tie.
Speaker B: Clip on. Come in. Wear real tie. Come on. Um man kind of haphazard situation.
Speaker A: And on this clip on tie is a tie clip.
Speaker B: I can't a tie clip. Clip on tie. Sounds like a tongue twister. Uh, I just love picturing him. Like, he's got his money tied around his waist. He puts on the parachutes and then he opens the door and the wind is like ripping it there. And then he's just like, I'm um, sick of playing this part. And he like unclips his eyes. He's like, I'm no longer business man. I love that.
Speaker A: I love that image so much. Also, imagine him getting ready to do this and he looks in his closet and he goes, yeah, no real time clipon.
Speaker B: Waste real time. I can't dramatically take that off in one fluid movement. That would help. No, too much.
Speaker A: Or maybe he thought like, if I get caught on something on the way down, make sure I don't strangle myself.
Speaker B: What are you going to get caught on? A tree. Tree? I don't know.
Speaker A: Bear?
Speaker B: I don't think if you land on a bear that hanging yourself on your tie is going to be your problem. It's like that guy that's like animals that I would pet for my own safety.
Speaker A: Level.
Speaker B: But they give baby bear such a booplebull nose. I will put baby bear the mama bear will not be pleased.
Speaker A: I really like that guy.
Speaker B: Uh, all right, so the clip on.
Speaker A: Tie is there clip on tie with tie clip. Two of the four parachutes, one of which was opened and cannibalized for parts. Oh, I don't know what that actually means. My guess is that they talk about this a little bit in some of the other articles I read was that he cannibalized it for parts, quote, unquote in order to strap the money bag to him. Um, because otherwise he wouldn't be able to keep it on him.
Speaker B: Right. It's not like they gave him, what was it? $200,000 in a fanny pack? Yeah.
Speaker A: No, they call it a knapsack. But my guess is it's like a duffel bag kind of situation.
Speaker B: You should have specified a fanny pack.
Speaker A: I uh, mean $200,000 in a fanny pack. What does that look like?
Speaker B: Just a very fatty pack. Several fanny packs. He just has like four fanny packs. I kind of like that. His hips don't lie. He like double stacks them on the tips.
Speaker A: Uh, he looks like full dad mode clip on time.
Speaker B: He's like on vacation. Dad. Uh, now. Okay, but when did fanny packs become like relevant, iconic? Were they around in 1970?
Speaker A: I have no clue. Three of fanny packs.
Speaker B: If you know, please write in.
Speaker A: Please.
Speaker B: Wait, now I want to know.
Speaker A: Oh, Shannon is going to look it up. So I guess don't write in, please.
Speaker B: If you have history about, um, the history of fanfax, what am I going to Google? Literally.
Speaker A: One of my very favorite things, and I read a couple of articles like this in, uh, grad school, were either articles or books about the history of menial things. So like the history of the pencil, m, and stuff like that. And I love that. So now I really want to know the history of the fanny pack. Oh, no. What?
Speaker B: All right, so first of all, shout out to any of our UK listeners who are laughing at us for calling it a fanny pack bumpeg. Right. Um, but there's a photo on this Wikipedia page and the caption is a person wearing a fanny cat. A person wearing a fanny pack stands with arms akimbo. What? Unlike somebody clearly had to practice their sat word. Right.
Speaker A: It's such a good word.
Speaker B: Uh, and then they specifically talk about the difference of the word fanny in American versus oh my gosh.
Speaker A: Although it does make sense because I have seen more people wear it on their front than on their back. Mhm, which if you wear it on your back, it's a bum bag. If you wear it on your front, it's a fanny pack.
Speaker B: There you go. Um, historically, the bag was positioned in front of the body so people could protect themselves from bandits. And then it talks about how old I am. Getting there. It's seeing one origin is native American buffalo patches, which were used instead of sewing pockets into clothing. Okay. So up to 5000 years ago okay. And then Europeans had medieval belt pouches. The Scottish.
Speaker A: Um, Sporen there you go.
Speaker B: Uh, the Scottish sporin is a similar belted pouch that survived because of the impracticality of pockets in a kilt. Why though? Because pockets are convenient.
Speaker A: No, kilts are actually just like, oh, it's one whole thing. And traditionally kilts would be the skirt portion as well as the sash, um, that you would use in order to hold over your head when it was raining or keep warm or whatever. But you still had a skirt, but you needed to be able to put that sash piece back around yourself. And so getting to pockets in that is difficult.
Speaker B: This segment brought to you by Emma Stint at the Scotland House in Williamsburg, Virginia.
Speaker A: I mean, yeah, if you need a kilt, I know where you can go.
Speaker B: There you go. Um, okay, but the information we really.
Speaker A: Came here for back to the fanny pack.
Speaker B: Sorry. The, ah, modern version was made from synthetic materials and it came into use in the 1980s and they were especially in vogue in the 1990s.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: But gradually their use fell into decline in the it says their use was satirized by the American humorous weird Al Yankovic in his song White and Nerdy I love him. So there's an unexpected celebrity mention for you if you're playing long on the bingo card.
Speaker A: Um weird. Al Yanko bitch.
Speaker B: This is such an extensive Wikipedia article. We do not need all of this. But do you need to know what is commonly stored in a whole lot?
Speaker A: $10,020 bill, $10,020 bills. That's what is commonly stored.
Speaker B: All right, sorry. There you go. You got a little bonus miniature on the history of the bum bag.
Speaker A: You're welcome. All right, where did I end that?
Speaker B: I, uh, literally don't know.
Speaker A: Cannibalizing the parachute.
Speaker B: Thought you were seeing Hannibal Lecter. And I was like, what? What kind of lecture ship? He pops out of the overhead compartment. It's like, comearies no. He says, Tina. Oh, no. Leave Tina alone.
Speaker A: Seriously, leave Tina alone. Um, so the fact that he didn't recognize the dummy one and cannibalize that for parts is interesting.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: He instead cannibalizes one that is useful and takes a dummy one with him, but he takes two. So he takes the dummy one and a usable one, right? And the thought is that he put both of them on.
Speaker B: Well, maybe he took the dummy one not for parachute reasons, but so he'd have parts on the ground. Because I'm sure like lost mash style. You could turn that into a hammock or a tent.
Speaker A: Oh my gosh, you're so smart. You should be a detector.
Speaker B: I read the book, hatch it many, many times.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker B: Many times.
Speaker A: And yet you don't like camping.
Speaker B: God, no. He almost died so many times, he should be dead. That book is fiction. 100%.
Speaker A: All right, so eyewitnesses were also interviewed in sketches were developed at the man, right?
Speaker B: From the crew eyewitnesses.
Speaker A: Tina and Florence and Scott and, uh, Rata, who I still can't say your name. I'm so sorry. Um, alright, so possible suspects were compiled and questioned, one of whom being an Oregon man named D. B. Cooper, on the off chance that this man, who had bought his ticket under the name Dan Cooper, had used his real name, DB. Though, was quickly ruled out as a suspect despite his minor police record because.
Speaker B: He had an alibi.
Speaker A: He was like, yeah, this totally wasn't me, you guys. Mhm, however, James Long, a local Portland reporter, was rushing to meet a deadline and confused the suspect who had been eliminated with the hijackers alias mhm. The error was republished so many times that it just became part of public memory. So that is why we know this case as the mystery of DB.
Speaker B: Cooper, right?
Speaker A: His name that he gave was Dan Cooper, right? And yet we still hold onto it as like, DB. Cooper, which is so funny to me because it's very much like one dude was like, oh crap, I'm late, DB. And now it's just forever in our brain.
Speaker B: Poor actual DB.
Speaker A: Cooper, right?
Speaker B: He's like, Guys, it wasn't me.
Speaker A: So it wasn't me. I can't oh, I can't do it. So where did Cooper end up? It was hard to figure out a precise space to investigate in order to find the man dead or alive and or the money, because they wanted to at least be able to see if maybe he dropped it and then they can HM. Track whatever he had left with it, all that kind of stuff. Um, or at the very least have somewhere to start. Because the plane yeah, he jumped out of it. But where exactly? Any small difference in the plane's speed, the weather conditions along the flight path determined by location, altitude, and the like, and the amount of time he remained in free fall before he pulled the rip cord of his parachute, if he pulled it at all, can just completely mess with where he might end up.
Speaker B: Well, and he specifically asked for the civilian chute so he could be 100% in control of when he pulls exactly. The rip cord.
Speaker A: Exactly. So weirdly, neither of the error air Force planes flanking the aircraft saw anyone jump out or saw a parachute open.
Speaker B: I completely forgot that they were there. Right.
Speaker A: I did too. But there was extremely limited visibility at that point because it was night. There was cloud cover obscuring any light that could come from below because even though this plane is flying low, it's still above clouds. So, M, he basically went through clouds.
Speaker B: To the very cinematic right.
Speaker A: Um, so there was no light coming from below because it was covered by clouds. But he was also dressed all in black. So m, if it's not, you can't see that.
Speaker B: And he's wearing sunglasses, but no tie, no clip on tie.
Speaker A: Uh, and so the FBI decided, let's recreate it. So they had Scott pilot I did not expect that.
Speaker B: Uh what? Yes. They were like, we're going to survive, or Dream team this situation. We're going to do it like it's for real. Okay, people, this is not a drill. Oh my gosh.
Speaker A: So they had Scott pilot the same aircraft on the same flight path. And FBI agents pushed a 200 pound sled out of the open air stairs to reproduce the upward motion the flight crew felt at 08:13 P.m., which was determined to be the likely jump time.
Speaker B: That's crazy. The fact that one man jumping out would cause the back of a plane to so dramatically.
Speaker A: Yeah, but if you think about it, you know how, like, when you're on the highway and you're going like 75 were holding onto your steering wheel and you just lightly turn it in order to correct yourself, to make yourself straight. If you turned that even just a little bit more, you'd go off into like the median or something. Because that speed is what's determining how much of a correction you need to make.
Speaker B: That's true.
Speaker A: So I would think that that is probably why. But it is insane to think about also just imagining because they have to tether themselves to this plane in order.
Speaker B: To get out without falling out themselves. They're just tethered to this plane, pushing £200 out of it and holding on CrossFit. Get out of here. Um, I love it, though. Yeah. Well, I was going to say also, thankfully, I've never been on a commercial aircraft with, uh, any of the doors open. To me. I'm like, that's crazy.
Speaker A: But maybe yeah, but it's also unpressurized, too, because that was one of his stipulations, was to keep the cabin unprecedented right. So that nothing would get sucked out.
Speaker B: That's true. Sorry, I'm trying to see if there was actually any mythbusters about this that.
Speaker A: I did not even think about.
Speaker B: Okay. Now but apparently they say Warehouse 13. His rip cord is in Warehouse 13, which is cool.
Speaker A: It is. That is a TV show I just finished.
Speaker B: It is on you to watch it.
Speaker A: Well, it's on Amazon, um, prime, but it's through IMDbTV, so it has ads, which honestly didn't bother me all that much. They were no longer than, like, 30, 90 seconds. So it's not like it was that bad. All right, so the FBI fully mythbusters it. And with this, they were able to make an educated guess that Cooper jumped out of the aircraft just over the Lewis River in southwestern Washington, which, when he jumped, was having a heavy rainstorm.
Speaker B: Oh, that doesn't seem enjoyable.
Speaker A: So search efforts ensued above and below the Lewis River with agents and deputies searching large swathes of land on foot and in helicopters, knocking on doors and running patrol boats along the reservoirs to the east of the river. So they're basically taking a radius and going.
Speaker B: Okay, but even though I feel jumping, conditions wise, a rainstorm would be not ideal in terms of getting away. Rainstorm is good because it'll eliminate your footprints and stuff. Exactly. I guess the mud is, like, very deep.
Speaker A: And, I mean, it depends on how long he was planning this for, but he may have known this is a good spot to jump.
Speaker B: Right. Well, and if it's a river, maybe he has a boat stashed or an.
Speaker A: Accomplice and he does know the area.
Speaker B: Or, like, he can go further up or downriver without leaving footprints or his scent for dogs or anything.
Speaker A: Yeah, I think he really thought through.
Speaker B: This, but we'll get on.
Speaker A: They did all the searching, but they had no trace of Cooper or any of the items that he would have had on him. So they couldn't find any of the parachutes. They couldn't find any of the money. They couldn't find any of his clothing. They couldn't find, um, no sunglasses. So an aerial search was organized as well, going along the entire flight path, which was referred to as vector 23 and Cooper literature because there are people who will take this investigation in this case and just go crazy. Um, I didn't use too many of them. I think I only technically used one. Um, but Vector 23 is very the popular way to describe the flight class.
Speaker B: Cool. But also it's going to be the name of our next album for the album art.
Speaker A: Yeah. Vector 23.
Speaker B: Vector 23. Wouldn't that be good? Like indie album?
Speaker A: Yeah, and the songs on it are sunglasses, rubber chicken and a slinky fanny pack. Bum bag.
Speaker B: And $20,000 fanny pack. And also special bonus track, poor Tina.
Speaker A: Tina, uh, for the whole entire song workshop it really? Because that's gold.
Speaker B: Maybe we're writing two different albums.
Speaker A: Maybe. You never know. Is this the moment when we decide we're done?
Speaker B: You're breaking up the van.
Speaker A: Apparently.
Speaker B: You're making me pull off this club.
Speaker A: Um, that's the other song.
Speaker B: Another bonus track. Vacation dad.
Speaker A: Vacation dad.
Speaker B: We are so committed to our own bits. I hope people appreciate it as we do. I don't care.
Speaker A: I'm here for you.
Speaker B: Wow. I love you, too.
Speaker A: Okay, guys. Alright, so how did we get there? Vector 23. Sovereign two as. Vector 23 in Cooper literature, but Victor 23 in standard aviation terminology because Victor for V, um, code for seriality. There you go.
Speaker B: I don't know if that's what it's.
Speaker A: I mean, it's alphabet or whatever, but yeah. So Victor 23, but they've changed it because Vector is cooler.
Speaker B: Those are also some of my favorite, uh, tik tocks where people are trying to come up with things. They're like s as in Slinky.
Speaker A: H as in Hannibal Lecter.
Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker A: So objects found in trees or broken tree tops were investigated, but nothing relevant popped up. So this aerial search didn't produce anything either. Turns out that they were real wrong about where the drop zone probably was.
Speaker B: How? Uh, wrong?
Speaker A: Real wrong. Scott had been flying the plane manually in order to follow Cooper's speed and altitude demands. And so figured out that his flight path was actually farther east than he realized when they did the test, which was on autopilot.
Speaker B: I, uh, am not a scientist. Shocking. Spoiler alert.
Speaker A: Wait, what?
Speaker B: Shocking me this whole time. Come on. Now all the variables have to stay the same.
Speaker A: Mean, but in a time of stress, maybe he wasn't really thinking about the.
Speaker B: Fact when they're recreating the test, but.
Speaker A: He was also driving that plane, too, so driving the plane. Flying the plane.
Speaker B: Yeah, he was driving it, but I don't know, someone missed something with a pocket protector. Should have been like um actually, that was rude. That was a stereotype. I apologize.
Speaker A: It's fine. It's mild. I'm kidding.
Speaker B: We do have scientists that listen to this show.
Speaker A: At mine, we do.
Speaker B: We have chief archaeologist comcast who I.
Speaker A: Don'T think I almost forgot.
Speaker B: Uh, who I don't think would require a pocket protector, but no, he's too cool for that. Please let us know.
Speaker A: All right.
Speaker B: Anyway, we're real wrong. How wrong? Put that on the merch.
Speaker A: Yeah, real wrong. The wind direction calculations had also been wrong by about 80 deg, which is significant. This and other data suggested that the actual spot was somewhere south southeast of, uh, the original space near where the Wasugal River drained. Wasugal is my guess.
Speaker B: That sounds fake. That sounds made up.
Speaker A: Uh, sounds like something from the Muppets.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: It's probably beautifully Native American.
Speaker B: Probably.
Speaker A: But in tone, it sounds like something out of the Muppets. A month after the hijack, the FBI sent out the lists of the ransom serial numbers from the bills to casinos, racetracks, and other businesses routinely associated with large cash transactions. They also sent it around to other law enforcement agencies around the world in case he had skipped the country.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: So there were no sign of the bills. No matter what they tried, rewards were offered for anyone who recovered the money. And in early 1972, the Attorney General released the serial numbers to the public to try and get these ransom notes found. In 1972, two men printed counterfeit $20 bills with the Cooper serial numbers on them and successfully swindled a Newsweek reporter out of $30,000 in exchange for an interview with a man they claimed was the hijacker. He wasn't. So this is a huge story for a few years. This is something crazy that they can't find this dude. Eventually, the Minnesota Supreme Court, specifically Minnesota, because that's where the Northwest Orient offices were, okay, um, paid the $180,000 claim on the ransom money in 1975 since the bill still hadn't been found. I don't know how that works, Myles. Please let me know. My guess is that because they basically borrowed the money from the banks for ransom because that's, uh, how that works in terms of law. But the hope is that they either recover the money or recover the person, and then the loan is forgiven or whatever. That because neither were found. They had to find a way to pay back the bank or the loan or whatever. So that's my guess. I'm probably wrong. Yeah, let me know. I don't mind being wrong so long as you tell me, because otherwise I'm going to believe it. On July 8, 2016, the FBI suspended the active investigation into the Cooper case to redistribute resources and manpower to more urgent cases. The fact that it had still been going yeah. Is insane to me.
Speaker B: I wonder if there's anybody who started their career and then they just like, we're on that case for their whole FBI career.
Speaker A: There has to be some what a good show.
Speaker B: That's the television show I want.
Speaker A: Just the DD cooper files.
Speaker B: Yeah, but how exhausting would that be?
Speaker A: It would be very exhausting to spend.
Speaker B: Your whole career on it'd.
Speaker A: Be single case, minute details. But, I mean, Paul Holes did it, and it's true. They found a Golden State killer.
Speaker B: It's true.
Speaker A: So maybe that was the hope. I'm sure it is the hope. When you get on a case that's unsolved, that you solve it. That is excellent.
Speaker B: You'd want to be the person, right? Especially when it's like an older case, right? Uh, yeah.
Speaker A: So regardless of the fact that the case has been suspended, the evidence is still being accepted, specifically related to the parachutes of the ransom money that may reappear. There is a 60 volume case file built over the course of the 45 years of investigation stored at the FBI headquarters in DC. There is also a 28 part packet of evidence gathered that is open to the public for viewing. And it's lots of paperwork, lots of testimonials, lots of like, we listen to this guy talk. Turns out that he had nothing to do with it, all that kind of stuff. But it's still, quote, unquote evidence.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: So let's talk about physical evidence. It's scarce, but it's there. So we know what he looked like. The flight attendants, both Schafner and Muffler, were interviewed the night of the hijacking in different cities and gave the same description. He was about five foot ten, £180, mid 40s, with close set brown eyes and what they called, quote, swarthy skin, which I think means he was like, kind of tan.
Speaker B: Uh, you have some olive undertones, right?
Speaker A: Maybe, yeah. So I don't really like Italian. I don't know.
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: Basically tans and the sunshine.
Speaker B: What's that like?
Speaker A: Right. I have no clue. Mother cries, cries in Irish, cries in extreme Irish. As for items left behind that we know we're his, we have the black clip on tie and the mother of pearl tie clip.
Speaker B: Fancy.
Speaker A: We also had eight cigarette butts. The butts have, of course, been lost.
Speaker B: Sorry, track number eight cigarette butts, eight cigarettes.
Speaker A: Literally lost.
Speaker B: Literally. Oh, my we're just writing an old school boy album, but only the title. No, we're not writing the songs. Any joking. Pete Wence. When? M you listen to this, I know you're a big fan.
Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
Speaker B: Just call us. You're more than welcome to use this concept.
Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, credit us, but yeah.
Speaker B: I require tickets, please, for forever.
Speaker A: Not just to that show, but for forever.
Speaker B: Yeah, for forever. What my lawyer said that's me. Yeah.
Speaker A: All right, so the tie and the tie clip were not announced to the public for almost 20 years after the hijacking, as in possession, probably because it was the only item of his that they had. Mhm and so in order to question people, they wanted to basically not tell anyone that it was a clip on tie. So that if they were questioning someone and they said, yes, I did it. All right, so what were you wearing? And they said, what kind of tie? Like, they would basically trying to get.
Speaker B: That out of it.
Speaker A: So that's my guess. In 1978, an instruction manual printout for lowering the stairs of this particular 727 were found about 13 miles from Castle Rock, Washington, which was within Flight 305 flight path that night. M so did he know how to lower this, or was he making sure he did it right so that he didn't die? I don't know. In February 1988, year old Brian Ingram was with his family, vacationing on the Columbia River at the beachfront about 9 miles from Vancouver, Washington. He found three packets of the ransom cash as he was on the river bank trying to help build a campfire. He was, like, digging for a campfire and just, like, built surface that just says money on it. Uh, the bills were falling apart, but still bundled together with rubber bands. So these bills were, like, loose, basically in rubber banded packets that he found. The FDI confirmed that the money was indeed part of the ransom. All still arranged the way that Cooper had received it. These bills were split 50 50 between Ingram and the airlines insurance, and the FBI retained 14 for evidence. So it wasn't 50 50. I don't know why I did that.
Speaker B: I'm surprised they gave the kid any money.
Speaker A: Well, I mean, he found it. There was still I know, but, like yeah.
Speaker B: Interesting.
Speaker A: Ingram kept these and sold 15 of them at auction for about $37,000 in 2008. Right. I bet you, though, when he told his parents this happened, his mom was like, that is your life savings now. This is what we're doing.
Speaker B: Don't be coming to us for college money. Right.
Speaker A: So I mean smart. Hold onto them. No other bills have shown up, but there has been potential evidence in the form of a, quote, decades old parachute strap and quote, that had been found in the area, as well as a piece of foam thought to be part of his backpack. Although I have no clue how that fits in. That was all it was described as part of the, um, backpack that has the parachute guide.
Speaker B: Oh, got you.
Speaker A: The theories specifically suspect profiling. So this is what the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have compiled of what we quote, unquote know mhm about this man. Cooper seemed familiar with the Seattle area confirmed by Muckle, and could have possibly been an Air Force vet, considering he knew where McCord Air Force Base was, which most civilians wouldn't know or think to comment on at the time. Either that or he was, like, an Air Force brat or something.
Speaker B: Right, but he also knew all the different wing flaps at this degree.
Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. This is a considerably risky way to get money. So the guess is that he must have been either desperate or wanted to prove that it could be done. So either he was just desperate, or he was just a huge risk taker and didn't care.
Speaker B: He was a Kennedy. He had the gene. Just kidding.
Speaker A: Agents also thought that it was possible that the man took his alias from a Belgian comic book popular during the 70s, which starred a fictional hero named Dan Cooper, who was a Royal Canadian Air Force test pilot, which first of all, a Belgian comic book about a Canadian Royal Air Force test pilot. It seems convoluted but enjoyable. But this test pilot took part in huge adventures and heroic feats, sometimes including parachuting out of planes. Mhm these comics, however, were not ever translated into English, nor were they ever sold in the US. So the man must have encountered them elsewhere in the world. So maybe he wasn't an American. The man could have been Canadian. Where the comics were sometimes sold no, not in English. And it followed with his demand for negotiable American currency, end quote, which no American would use as a phrase to extort money. I definitely wouldn't say negotiable. What is it? Negotiable as is the money negotiable? Or is the fact that it's American money negotiable?
Speaker B: Okay. Seriously though, given the exchange rate, if you were trying to demand money at this point in 2021, I'd be like.
Speaker A: Give me some British pounds, please.
Speaker B: Like 20,000 euro, please. Yes. Uh, because that's significantly better in the long run.
Speaker A: Yeah, a little bit more stable. It was guessed, because he had no discernible accent, that he could have been Canadian because of it. M it was also suggested that Cooper knew aircraft, like you said, and flying techniques. He chose this plane specifically because it was ideal for bailout escapes, because there was an airstare behind the wings. But it also had three engines that were placed high and forward on the planes that you couldn't get caught in them if you jumped from these aft stairs. He knew how long it would take to refuel the plane, which is just interesting. I don't know how long it takes to refuel a plane and that the airstare could be lowered during flight, something that even the civilian flight crew wouldn't have been made aware of. And it couldn't be overridden from the cockpit, so the light could turn on and say that this has been lowered, but they couldn't press a button and get it to go back up.
Speaker B: That seems like a bit of a design flaw.
Speaker A: Yeah, they have fixed that. That is no longer possible.
Speaker B: All right, that's good.
Speaker A: Yeah. It is disputed if Cooper's actual jump was basically suicide. It is suggested that regardless of his outcome, cooper most likely lost the ransom during his descent. But the findings of the ransom so far from the probable drop site makes others think that he dumped it knowing he couldn't spend it once he landed. Mhm so that's interesting to me only because thinking about how you don't dig that deep in order to build a campfire in sand, mhm, and this little kid found it when he first started digging.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: So that means to me that this money hadn't been there very long. But then how is it degraded?
Speaker B: So nine years?
Speaker A: Yeah. So I don't know if maybe it just got shifted up.
Speaker B: Yeah. Like heavy rains washed away.
Speaker A: Exactly. I don't know. The M fact that it also was pretty degraded, too. The money was pretty degraded. If it was buried, why would it be degraded other than water? Because other than water, there wouldn't be any elements for it to encounter.
Speaker B: I feel like water. It's just paper.
Speaker A: Well, no American money is made out of cloth.
Speaker B: Oh. Mhm.
Speaker A: It's basically rag paper, which is made with water, which means that it's both water soluble and you can well, it's true.
Speaker B: You leave a dollar in your pocket and you put it in the wash, it just gets a little rumpled.
Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. M. And even at this time, in 1971, it was still being made with rag paper, as it is now. So the fact that I know that Cooper's clothing and his choice of time were very important, too. He chose a four day weekend to get out of the woods and get home and back to work. And if he decided to hitchhike, he more likely would get picked up in a suit and tie, which he was not wearing, but like a suit jacket and slacks and a white shirt. Um, than if he wore t shirt and jeans coming out of the middle of the woods, as well as hiding in plain sight at an airport and on a plane in a nondescript outfit. So he's super planned ahead.
Speaker B: Can I ask you something that's not really related?
Speaker A: That's fine. We went on a tangent about fanny packs, so I think we're good.
Speaker B: Sorry. No, it's fine. This is what happens when we have it recorded in person.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. We need to just conversate. Okay. So I have had this thought, this ongoing thought experiment since maybe high school.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: If you are driving along at night, or I guess at any time, but this lot usually occurs to me at night. Um, like when I was driving back from Richmond after we saw newsies that one time it was dark, it was late, I was very tired, and I was alone and I was driving. I had the thought of if somebody came out of the woods and they had blood on them, they looked injured, and they were like, help me, please. Somebody is chasing me. Would you let them into your car or what would you do?
Speaker A: Male or female? Um, not that it should matter, but it does.
Speaker B: I guess the female. Okay. Because that's usually what I think of.
Speaker A: Can I see both their hands?
Speaker B: Uh, I guess.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: I haven't gotten this.
Speaker A: Uh, my thought process is if I am the only person on the road, uh, that's an issue for my safety. So what I would do is I would pull over, but I wouldn't open my car doors or open my window. I would just pull over so that they had somewhere to sit and stay put. If someone was truly chasing them, then, uh, if they appeared, I would be like, hop in the car. Because then. That's true. However, if I am not the only person on the road, I pull over, I put my flashing lights on, and I pray that someone else pulls over with me and then I get them and reassess and figure it out.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: However, if this is not a female and it is a dude running out all bloody, I'm sorry. Bye, buddy. I'm so sorry.
Speaker B: I'll call my wife.
Speaker A: I'm so sorry if that feels sexist to anybody, but I just can't even go as a single white female.
Speaker B: As.
Speaker A: A single person, specifically a woman. I myself, I want to be as altruistic as I possibly can, but I can't.
Speaker B: I think even if you and I were in a car together, or even if it was like, me and a guy in a car, I would not be opening my car in the window. I'd be like, I'm going to call.
Speaker A: Exactly. That was what I was going to do.
Speaker B: Enough. And I've seen enough that I'm like, no, you'd be pretending to be a victim when actually I mean, that's a very elaborate ruth it is a very.
Speaker A: Elaborate rule, but I am too afraid of getting hurt and dying myself.
Speaker B: Better to be kind of rude and cautious and everybody gets out okay than to just be trusting and trying to be helpful.
Speaker A: And I feel like if we really were ever in that situation, my brain would go, that's not real, and keep driving. Maybe because I think we're thinking about it as a thought process. Absolutely, I would stop, but I'd like to figure out a way to get help for them. But in truth, I'd probably be like, that's a ghost. Keep going.
Speaker B: Wasn't that an episode of, um, Supernatural where they stopped to help this girl and then it turns out that she's.
Speaker A: Actually a ghost and it's on a loop? They have to keep going back to pick her up. Pick, quote unquote, pick her up.
Speaker B: And she's like, help me, help me.
Speaker A: And they're like, we can't like, you're dead, you're stuck. Like, we have to figure out how to make you unstuck.
Speaker B: And then they have to chase the ghost. That's like chasing her or something.
Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, it's a very gross episode. The fact that I remember the whole episode, though, is really disgusting. He takes apart things and people and animals. All right, moving on.
Speaker B: Sorry. Yes. You would be more likely to trust somebody or be willing to talk to them about hitchhiking if they were wearing a suit.
Speaker A: Unfortunately, yeah. But I mean, for those instances, appearances matter. And also, being a dude in a suit and being a dude, picking up another one is probably a different situation. But since I'm not a dude, I don't know.
Speaker B: Also, please write in or DMs your answer to my thought experiment of driving through the woods and a bloody hitchhiker. What would you do? I love hearing what people well, it.
Speaker A: Makes me think about Maura Murray M and, like, how many people passed her and the person who probably ended up stopping for her, like, in that situation as a victim, if that were me running, god forbid, knock on wood, like, running thank you. Running out of the wood's bloody from somebody.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: I wouldn't want to get into another person's car.
Speaker B: I don't trust myself to run that fast.
Speaker A: Shannon is like, I don't already be dead.
Speaker B: Because if you think about it if you think about it, I don't know in my scenario where this person's come from, but somewhere in a wooded area, you've had to escape whatever building or containment they've had you in. If you're injured, it's hard to do that. And you're trying to run through the woods to get to a main road. At that point, I would be desperate for anybody to pick me up to help me, or at least, like you said, to stay with me, even if they're not letting me into their car.
Speaker A: I think in my brain, I'm like, at that point, I would trust nobody. But you have to.
Speaker B: You pick the lesser of two evil. I'm, um, trying to think. There was some I can't remember if it was a movie or a TV show or even a documentary, but this girl, like, she got out of the house of the person that had her.
Speaker A: Is this the vampire?
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Never mind.
Speaker B: And she, like, ran away. I don't know. Maybe I heard about it on my favorite murder. I don't know. But she ran away, and then somebody in a pickup truck stopped to help her. She was like, oh, thank God. And then they took her back to the place, like, oh, my God.
Speaker A: It was the dude who had kidnapped her because she hadn't seen his face.
Speaker B: Oh, I see.
Speaker A: And so she was just like, help me, help me. And he was like, yeah, I'll help you get back to my kitchen where I have, uh, put you on an island.
Speaker B: Anyway, I'm sorry. That's okay.
Speaker A: It is interesting. Please do send in what maybe not even just your answer to that thought experiment, but other thought experiments, because I do like thinking about them. Okay, where was I? Oh, 2 hours later, basically. So the FBI thinks that Cooper lacked the proper skills for an actual skydive, particularly because he chose the dummy as well as one of the oldest parachutes to jump with while cannibalizing a perfectly good one to help hold the money to him, which they think that's just their guess of why he did that. Um, he had no wind chill protection, and it was raining, which is just bad luck, I think, on his part. But he could have possibly died during the descent because it was too cold that far up, and he didn't have protection against it because it's not just.
Speaker B: That it's cold up top.
Speaker A: It's also that he's falling. So he's catching wind and getting colder.
Speaker B: Well, and if you are not experienced, especially at a night jumping, you're jumping.
Speaker A: Into forests, skydiving and scuba diving. Diving, those most iterations, I suppose, in my mind, are some scary things. Mhm I would never want to be that far underwater, and I would never want to be that high up in the air. I think I'm good where I'm at.
Speaker B: I'm glad we reached that conclusion for you.
Speaker A: Yeah, I think I'm good where I'm at. All right, so the FBI has concluded, kind of, because there's no real evidence that Cooper probably perished due to his jump and likely will never be found. But we have a list of suspects. M this is a heavy lift lift. However, I'm only going to give you three of the most promising ones and the ones that I like the most, because the list is enormous. Mhm of the amount of people who have either confessed to being Dan Cooper mhm or who are suspected of being Dan Cooper, either by police, or by their family members, or by friends or by deathbed confessions. Uh, there's so many of them. So go to Wikipedia, to the DB. Cooper page, you'll find them. I chose three of the most promising because reading that entire list made my head hurt. So the first is Lynn Doyle Cooper, referred to as LD. Doyle was a leather worker and a Korean War vet who was proposed as a suspect in 2011 by his niece, Marla Cooper. LD had died in 1999. Marla remembered when she was eight overhearing LD and another uncle planning something that involved, quote, expensive walkietalkies, end quote, while at her grandmother's house southeast of Portland. The next day was the hijacking of Flight 305. Her uncles were out turkey hunting at the time of the hijacking, but L D came back wearing a bloody shirt, which he said was from an auto accident, which in my mind, I'm like, why would you choose an auto accident when you were out hunting turkeys? But maybe he didn't actually catch a turkey. And so he was like, I have to have a different alibi anyway. M apparently, Marlowe later learned that her own parents had come to believe that LD was the hijacker. She also remembered that he was obsessed with the Canadian comic book featuring Dan Cooper and had one thumbtacked to his wall. She did admit, however, that her uncle was not a skydiver or paratrooper of any kind. He did not know how to do any of that. An alternative witness sketch was produced in August of 2011, but it is not confirmed, as they have much more reliable sketches from the flight attendants. And this was from a passenger sitting behind Dan Cooper. Um, the hair described was wavy, however, like LDS. That's the end of that. So the connections are there, but there's no physical evidence tying him, and the money's never shown up in that family, anything like that. The next step uh, is Richard Floyd McCoy Jr. McCoy was an army vet who did two tours in Vietnam, first as a demolition expert and then as a Green Beret helicopter pilot. After service, he was a warrant officer in the National Guard and an active recreational skydiver. April 7, 1972, McCoy performed a copycat hijack on flight 88 55, a Boeing 727 with aft stairs like this one, and it was flying out of Denver, Colorado.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: Although at this point, I think it's still the on board. He brandished an unloaded handgun and a paperweight made to look like a hand grenade demanding four parachutes and $500,000.
Speaker B: So he's up the ante even more. Panty pack.
Speaker A: I like that. He brought us paperweight was just like, this is a grenade.
Speaker B: Uh, no one will look closely.
Speaker A: No one will know.
Speaker B: You know who I thought of when you said that about a paperweight made to look like a grenade? Professor Ashbrook.
Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B: You're so right.
Speaker A: As a grenade. Yes.
Speaker B: He totally would have it.
Speaker A: He absolutely would. Anyway, well, there's a recovered memory of that class, if ever you go to college. And there is a class called the History of the Politics of Mass Murder. It's interesting, but it's a lot. It was also first semester, first semester, freshman year, honors seminar. Yup. Politics of mass murder. Thanks, Ashbrook. Anyway, he's brandishing this unloaded handgun and the paperweight made to look like a grenade. So obviously he has no intention of actually hurting anybody. Right. Which is good.
Speaker B: They don't know that, though.
Speaker A: They have no clue. But it's kind of like the bomb, because even though he brought the bomb, like he grabbed the bomb to take with him down.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Like, you would think maybe the impact would make the bomb.
Speaker B: Yeah, maybe. I would not take the bomb with me jumping out of an airplane. Exactly.
Speaker A: So that makes me think bomb was fake. So once they landed in San Francisco's Airport, just as the other plane did, to refuel, McCoy made the aircraft get back in the sky and jumped out over Provo, Utah, which he had family who lived in Utah.
Speaker B: Right. They gave him the money, though.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: At the refilling?
Speaker A: Yes, they gave him the money, they gave him the parachutes. All of that happened, same as it did with the Cooper got you. However, he left behind his handwritten hijack instructions and his fingerprints on a magazine he had been reading while he waited. A handwriting expert later compared the instructions to McCoy's military service records and determined it with him. And they checked his fingerprints and basically confirmed it. McCoy was arrested April 9, two days after the hijacking with the ransom cash, and he received a 45 year sentence, except he escaped two years later with several accomplices by crashing a garbage truck through the Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary main gates, just full on barreled through.
Speaker B: Boom. Um.
Speaker A: McCoy was tracked down three months later in Virginia Beach virginia and was killed in a shootout with FBI agents trying to apprehend them.
Speaker B: Um oh, my goodness.
Speaker A: So he fully was like, I'm going out in a blaze of glory or something. There are a few hiccups. McCoy's age and description don't match, though I would argue that the description of his face is kind of close. Like, he's got a little bit of pointiness to him, but he doesn't look like this. He put the two and two together, and you're like, I can kind of see it, but if two people gave basically the exact same description, this doesn't seem like it matches. His skydiving skill was well above what was thought of Cooper's skydiving skill, and that's purely because of the things that he chose in order to where he chose to skydive all that. And lastly, McCoy was in Las Vegas the day of the Portland hijacking and in Utah the day after with his family for Thanksgiving dinner. And it's pretty well confirmed that he was not Dan Cooper.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: But a double could go with sunglasses, could go to your family Thanksgiving. I don't know.
Speaker B: What if you send a double to your family Thanksgiving? Imagine how that would my mother would.
Speaker A: Still feed them, but would be very confused.
Speaker B: Uh, all right.
Speaker A: Last we have Robert Wesley Raxtraw. Raxtraw was a retired pilot and an ex convict who was in the Vietnam War with the army. He was arrested in Iran and deported to the US to face charges for possession of explosive and forging checks. Okay? He already is a very colorful person. He's got a lot going on. A few months later, once he was on bail, rextra tried to fake his own death by radioing in a false Mayday to say that he was bailing out of a plane over Monterey Bay, California. He was arrested in Fullerton, California, on the charge of forging federal pilot certificates. And the plane he had said he ditched was repainted and found him nearby hangar. So he was on that plane when he called in the fake May Day.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: But he was just basically like, I'm.
Speaker B: Going to jump out and this plane is going to crash somewhere.
Speaker A: And they tracked him down.
Speaker B: They're like, hey, buddy.
Speaker A: Hi, buddy. You feeling all right?
Speaker B: Glad to see you made, uh it yeah.
Speaker A: Although RAX Straw was only 28 at the time of the Cooper hijacking, he resembled the sketch and had military parachute training as well as a criminal record. The FBI, however, eliminated him as a suspect after no direct evidence could be found on him. Granted, no direct evidence could be found on anybody.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: Raxtro admitted to being the hijacker, but eventually admitted it was a stunt. Like, he had just pretended that he actually did it. And he died in 2019. So fairly recently, and now we have an honorable mention because this is the only thing that I knew about DB. Cooper other than, like, the basic facts, mhm, was that there was someone who claimed to be D. B. Cooper for weird reasons. So Barbara Dayton was born Robert Dayton and served as a merchant marine and in the army during World War II. After being discharged, she worked with explosives in construction and wanted to become a commercial airline pilot, but could not obtain a license. Apparently, the FAA rules prevented her, and it is suggested it was because she was transgender. Two years after the hijacking, dayton claimed to have staged the hijacking to get back at the airline industry and the FAA. So she basically was like, I wanted the money from them. I wanted them to give me what they had taken from me dressed as a man. So she cut her hair short and she dressed fully as a man. All that she said the money was hidden in a cistern near Woodburn, just outside of Portland, Oregon. Eventually, she recanted her entire story. And the FBI never officially commented on Dayton. They didn't ever really, like, they took her statement, but they never really took her seriously.
Speaker B: Uh, but it makes so much sense because she's a woman. She would only have a clip on tie. She didn't know how to do a real tie.
Speaker A: Well, she was male to female, so she might have known how to do a real tie. But she died in 2002, so we will not know if it were true or not. The reason, too, that she eventually recanted was because they said that the hijacking statute of limitations was still active. And she was like, oh, well, then I didn't do any work. And they technically, they didn't have any hard evidence against her, but they just had her word, and she could recant that.
Speaker B: I was like, never mind.
Speaker A: Yeah. So here's the aftermath. Multiple copycat hijackings, including the one by McCoy, occurred in later years, which resulted in the FAA requiring that the Boeing 727 aircraft have a device later called the Cooper Vein, which prevents the airstare to be lowered during flight. There was also the mandatory installation of peepholes and all cockpit doors so that the crew can observe passengers without opening the door. Earl J. Cassey was the owner of Skydiving School that gave the four parachutes to Cooper when he demanded civilian gear. Earl was found dead in his home outside of Seattle in April of 2013. So well after mhm, the death was ruled a homicide from blunt forced trauma to the head. The case remains unsolved, and officials don't believe that there is any possible link to the case of DB. Cooper as burglary is their proposed motive.
Speaker B: But still, did the FBI or anyone else did they look into records from area skydiving schools to see if anybody matched the description?
Speaker A: I didn't check that. That's a very good idea, because I genuinely didn't even think that.
Speaker B: I feel like you have to be very desperate and or very brave to attempt to jump out of a commercial aircraft, having never done any sort of so if you were going to do this, wouldn't you at least take a little Saturday class, maybe?
Speaker A: Let's just go around the room, tell each other our names and why we're here.
Speaker B: And then he was like, yeah. So, uh hi. My name's Dan.
Speaker A: Hi, Dan.
Speaker B: Thanks, guys. I'm, um, excited to be here. Looking to just get a little training before I take over plane on my next vacation.
Speaker A: Sounds really cool.
Speaker B: Everyone's just like, it's so funny. All right, who's next? Carol.
Speaker A: All right, go ahead. Hi, my name is Carol.
Speaker B: Hi, Carol.
Speaker A: Thank you. I am also here to buff, uh, up my M Skydiving skills so that I can go hijack a plane on my next vacation because M Carol steals jokes. All right. Lastly.
Speaker B: I'm so pleased with us, uh, other people. I don't care if you don't like it. Leave us a review or leave us alone. All right. What were you saying? We're so close to the end. All right, I have thoughts, too.
Speaker A: I have a line that says, uh, Shannon, what are your thoughts? But not yet.
Speaker B: I'm sorry.
Speaker A: In popular culture, restaurants, bowling alleys what? And shops in the Portland area and in the Pacific Northwest hold Cooperthemed Promotions and sell Cooperthemed souvenirs as well as hold a Cooper Day celebration each November in Ariel, Oregon that has been held every year since 1974, except for in 2015 when the owner died. Yeah. Um, but now I need to go that's on our road trip list now. Oregon in November, and then well, it will be September. We're going to, uh, mothman.
Speaker B: Oh, yes.
Speaker A: And then October, we can have spooky times and go see something spooky. And then November, we're flying out to Oregon to go to Cooper Day.
Speaker B: Okay, great.
Speaker A: Yeah. Cooper has been the subject of many TV shows and movies, as well as a 2020 documentary called The Mystery of D. B. Cooper about the case, which is where a lot of.
Speaker B: All of.
Speaker A: This new stuff popped up.
Speaker B: Ah.
Speaker A: It was rackstra. It was, uh, Barbara. It was like that kind of thing. Um, I've only seen the trailer. I didn't have enough time to watch the whole thing, but I'm excited to watch the whole thing. It looked interesting. I don't know how much more information they could have possibly glued.
Speaker B: Is it on History Channel or I did not check.
Speaker A: I'm so sorry.
Speaker B: It's okay. Well, I'll look it up and put.
Speaker A: It in the show notes regardless. In 1983, a 330 page book titled Haha was published by Signum Books Limited, claiming to have seven clues to retrieve the $200,000 in $20 bills. And the author was listed as DB. Cooper.
Speaker B: Yeah. However, DB.
Speaker A: Cooper was not the name that he used. It was Dan Cooper.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: So that in and of itself is interesting. And also, we don't have $200,000 in $20 bills in 1983. We have something akin to like 993,000 and however many because Ingram found them. Mhm so if this book is published in 1983, these bills have already been found and you can't find the full $200,000. Mhm so this book still exists and the cover is kind of cute. It's like a little cartoon. Um, I shouldn't say, obviously the guess is that it isn't actually written by the man who hijacked the plane or woman, Barbara, but it is interesting in and of itself because it kickstarted the genre of treasure hunting books. M there was a book when I was a kid that my dad and I were obsessed with and it was like, filled with all these riddles and these beautiful illustrations that had clues in the illustrations as to where these little medallions were across the United States. And these medallions, if you found them, you would bring it to the town that was within the space where you were like the town you were in. You would bring it to the bank on their main drag and they would have the insect or an, uh, animal that was built out of glass and gems and worth anywhere from $30,000 to a million dollars. My dad and I were obsessed with this for a good year and people had actually found these things. People had actually found these medallions. So it was real, and I don't know what has happened to that.
Speaker B: So since you had the medallion, the bank was like, we'll show you the fancy thing.
Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure it said you need to go to this bank specifically on the street or whatever, and then hand it over and it was in a.
Speaker B: Big bank deposit box and put back the medallion or something.
Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, sure, there was some kind of like, sign off thing. It isn't like you walked up and they were like, here you go, here's precious $30,000.
Speaker B: Oh, wait, they give it to you?
Speaker A: Yeah, it's yours, you keep it. Yeah.
Speaker B: Oh my goodness. I thought you just got to look at it.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: Oh.
Speaker A: You basically are on a treasure hunt.
Speaker B: Well, I think there was something similar.
Speaker A: I don't know exactly. There's multiple where there were treasure chests.
Speaker B: Buried and there's like at least one that's still out there.
Speaker A: Yes. And that was recently in the news. I don't remember the name of it.
Speaker B: But it was recently in the CBS Make US. I don't want to be the host because I want to participate, but get Jeff Probes in the off season of Survivor to host the show where we try and find these lost artifacts. Uh, it's like The Amazing Race, but with elements of Survivor without having to sleep on the ground.
Speaker A: Yes, it's great. It means that I don't need to eat bugs. Well.
Speaker B: I'll take one for the team if we have to.
Speaker A: Thanks, man.
Speaker B: Like the Temple of Doom.
Speaker A: I'll do the hype thing. Okay. Yeah, don't worry, I'd be there for you. I just am not allowed to read the map.
Speaker B: God, no.
Speaker A: We're already going left.
Speaker B: This is me on CVS.
Speaker A: All right, Shannon, what are your thoughts?
Speaker B: My thoughts? Do you want the kind of silly one first or the more like practical one?
Speaker A: Let's go practical and end with silly.
Speaker B: Okay. So if I were DB.
Speaker A: Cooper, imagining the clip on Tynow there you go. Oh, put on the sunglasses.
Speaker B: Good job. Thanks. I feel like because I love a heist sort of movie, I love all the oceans movies and things.
Speaker A: Excellent movie.
Speaker B: I feel like it would be the smartest, most practical way to accomplish this heist is to make people think you jumped out of the plane, but actually you stow away.
Speaker A: You were Tina Muckler all along.
Speaker B: No, I mean, the most simple way, which I'm like, that probably wouldn't work.
Speaker A: But.
Speaker B: I don't know how you would cause that weight distribution. But maybe you push a beverage cart out or something and you check the other two parachutes, uh, and throw off your tie.
Speaker A: That was in the plane.
Speaker B: Well, no, you throw it into the plane so that they think that you did a dramatic thing before you jumped out. Um, but then you, like, hide away in the overhead bins or something. And he said to keep the landing gear down. So maybe I don't know how you would do it, but, like, somehow that, to me, makes the most logical sense to stow away in plain sight.
Speaker A: You know what I mean?
Speaker B: To stay on the plane. Because then you're saying, safe. You're not jumping out of a plane in a rainstorm at night. And when the plane lands, yes, they searched it, but did they tear the plane apart or did they just look in, like, the passenger areas and go, okay, he jumped. Yeah.
Speaker A: I'm wondering how do you get to the baggage space?
Speaker B: Or, like, you stash did you have an accomplice? And then you stash, like, a runway crew uniform somewhere and do the thing where you walk out into the wasn't that crazy? Exactly.
Speaker A: My thought is that there has to be an accomplice. Otherwise, I feel like there's no way for him to get this done on his own. However, the money specifically, because the serial numbers are so precise, you can't use that.
Speaker B: Maybe it was maybe he wasn't even doing it for the money.
Speaker A: It was just for the middle of it.
Speaker B: No, it was part of an initiation process for some sort of spy ring.
Speaker A: Like the ocean's crew, and everyone gets a different initiation activity. Uh, so, uh, that it's not the same thing over and over.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Uh I really like that.
Speaker B: Write a book. We'll write a book.
Speaker A: He memorized the tummy shoot. What's the silly one?
Speaker B: Okay, so after Falcon in the Winter Soldier is done, the next thing to come out on Disney Plus is a series titled Loki. Because if you want Avengers endgame when they go back in time if you are living under a rock. But when they go back in time to New York, 2012, he's captured at the end of the original Avengers movie, but then the Tesseract gets loose, so he takes it and disapparates, essentially. And that's where his television show jumps out, because in the timeline that we know he is so that's how they're doing that. But in the most recent trailer, they definitely imply that he is posing as DB. Cooper. That's awesome. And I thought it was just people making jokes, um, in the comments of the YouTube video, but actually on the Wikipedia page for DV. Cooper. Um, in the television and film section, it says, in the upcoming Disney Plus miniseries Loki, what is playing terrifying. It's.
Speaker A: That was you raised me up.
Speaker B: It's the video for my Aunt Brand, but it started auto play.
Speaker A: It's the most Irish thing I've ever heard. Yeah, that was also for my grandfather's funeral, was You Raised Me Up on repeat.
Speaker B: Yeah. In the upcoming Disney Plus miniseries Loki, set in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, loki is seen taking the disguise of DB. Cooper before jumping from a Boeing 727 um, and disappearing into the bifrost.
Speaker A: Oh, that's cool.
Speaker B: So the real reason they never found Jebie Cooper is because it was Loki and he got beamed back up.
Speaker A: Loki beamed back up.
Speaker B: But then when you were describing the sketches that, uh, the two flight attendants had described, and you were like, yes, he was relatively pointy, and he had, like, dark hair. I was like Tom Hillson.
Speaker A: I will say honestly, though, he looks more like Agent Coolson than he does like Loki.
Speaker B: I'm sorry, who?
Speaker A: Agent Coulson.
Speaker B: Coulson. Coulson.
Speaker A: Sorry. Why did I say coulson?
Speaker B: I don't know. He is pretty cool.
Speaker A: He is cool.
Speaker B: I love coulson.
Speaker A: Let me see if I can show you.
Speaker B: Oh, we're moving. We're on the move. So I guess we'll report back after, um, Loki comes out.
Speaker A: Yeah. So those are the photos. Those are the sketches.
Speaker B: Got you.
Speaker A: And then this dude, Rachel down at the bottom, which I don't think looks all that much like the sketch, but.
Speaker B: I don't think so.
Speaker A: It's just me. So my thought is that LD Cooper is a pretty good candidate, but the fact that he wasn't really a skydiver, either he kept it from his family, or he would have died had he jumped out. However, he was not the only one. There was another uncle involved. There was another man involved in that. So maybe he was the one who jumped. But there's no information on him, so I don't know. I don't know. In any case, as is with the nature of this podcast, we currently don't know for sure, and unfortunately, we didn't figure it out. Well, we kind of did it's. Loki. All right, well, that's it. I did it.
Speaker B: You did it.
Speaker A: Thank you, Christian. It was already on the list of, uh, Topics to do, but I figured it was good to do when someone suggested Jesse I'll get to Bigfoot eventually. I'm sorry. So many other podcasts have done it very recently that we want to have our own moment to shine because full superhero pose.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Well, friends, if you'd like to see any of the photos, go to our Insta. We gave you plenty of juicy little tidbits for our bingo card, so make sure you won, and we'll shout you out if you tag us. Thank you for listening, Shannon.
Speaker B: Oh, yeah. This is a grand old time, right?
Speaker A: You didn't get scared? No, I'm keeping to my promise, man. I already have the next few weeks lined up.
Speaker B: Great. I just feel like now there's just a ticking clock. There's an hourglass every week we get closer to the time running out, and, um, then it's going to be like this even be like, no, I don't.
Speaker A: Think I'll do another doll for a long time. Okay, I'm going to try my best not to do another doll for a long time.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: I might do another house because we did the Spooky Winchester house, which turned.
Speaker B: Out not to be that spooky throwing it way back. That needs to be on the road trip list, too.
Speaker A: Yes, well, there's a lot of places in California, uh, that are supposedly haunted, so we should go and haunt the ghosts. I have so many ghost theories, you guys. There probably is going to be an episode of all my theories about what ghosts are. All right, but we need to end this now. Thank you for listening. And remember, this podcast doesn't exist. Oh, my God. It works so well when we're in the same room.
Speaker B: Not a different room.
Speaker A: My gosh, I could not figure it out on board. Wait, what?
Speaker B: Now stay tuned for our special behind the scenes episode, minisode, uh, National Treasure.
Speaker A: Oh, that's right. National Treasure Park. Yes, it's stay tuned.
Speaker B: Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.

Ep. 24: Rubber Chicken Slinky: D.B. Cooper

Who was the mystery man who jumped out of a plane in 1971? A spy? A superhero? An idiot? Join us as Emma tells Shannon the story of D.B. Cooper, get sidetracked by thought experiments and fanny packs, and try our hardest to keep this 2 hour long episode entertaining (sorry it's so long ya'll! Leave us a review or leave us alone!). Stay at the end for a bonus ten minutes of National Treasure Talk!

Speaker A: Hello.
Speaker B: Hi.
Speaker A: I'm Shannon.
Speaker B: I'm Emma.
Speaker A: And welcome to this podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker B: Hi.
Speaker A: Hello. You just look so funny. Um, where are you joining us from this week?
Speaker B: This week, I am, um, once again in my parents house. But this time, I am in my bedroom closet. Um, there are workmen downstairs who are fixing my parents kitchen cabinets. So if you hear some ambient knocking noises or some of their, uh, rocking tunes because they're listening to, like, 1960s BOP music. Like, it's really good, but it's also, like, a little too loud. So if you hear anything, that's it. That's why. Um, but I figured being in my closet was a little more me.
Speaker A: I love your closet tour. When you get back, find other closets to record it.
Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, we still got Liam. His is a full walk in, so his closet would be actually probably a better choice. Why didn't I use that?
Speaker A: Well, too late.
Speaker B: It seems empty now.
Speaker A: You can always move after we're done recording this one. That's complete the tour.
Speaker B: Complete the tour. Yeah.
Speaker A: Gotta catch them all.
Speaker B: Gotta catch, uh, them all. Uh, I never watched Pokemon. Sorry.
Speaker A: That's okay. But you did some random singing, which means that our friends at home, if they've downloaded our bingo card, can cross that off if you're like. What a bingo card? What is happening? You can visit our Instagram, which is at this podcast doesn't exist. Click that little link in Bio, and right at the top, you'll see a link to your very own this podcast doesn't exist bingo card. It's a fun time. Our friends play along at home if they're not driving or other such important things. And if you get bingo, or even if you don't screenshot it, tag us, share it. We'd love to see it.
Speaker B: Absolutely. You can also see all of the photographs that we have for every episode on, um, our Instagram, as well as some of our fan art. We have a lovely friend who does some wonderful graphic design. Um, and they have made us some beautiful things. So you'll want to go and see that on our Instagram, but you can also send us your own stories and maybe even your own graphic design decisions to our Gmail at this podcast doesn't We love hearing ghost stories. Well, I love hearing ghost stories. Shannon distinctly does not, but muddles through quite well. Um, but we want to know what your conspiracy theories are, what ones you believe in, what ones you find funny, but like, you know, want to hear us talk about. Any suggestions for podcast episodes, all that fun stuff, go ahead and send us an email. We love to hear it. And we also have what are they called? Mailbag episodes. Mailbag episodes. I was going to call them fan favorites, but that's not it. Mailbag um, episodes. So if you've got a story and you want us to tell it on the podcast, send it to us. We want to read it.
Speaker A: Absolutely. And you can be anonymous if you want.
Speaker B: Yeah, you don't have to tell us.
Speaker A: Attached to the story. We can do that for you. We aim to please. We aim to serve. Um, we love that. While you're at it, while we're doing some housekeeping, if you could rate, review, and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to, we would really appreciate it. Share with a friend. Spread the love. That'd be awesome.
Speaker B: Share with an enemy. Spread the love. Scare them like I scare Shannon. Make them cry. Wow.
Speaker A: This got really aggressive really quick. I came out to have a good time. I'm honestly feeling so attacked right now.
Speaker B: But I'm not attacking you.
Speaker A: You say that.
Speaker B: Okay. I make this promise, and I make it right now in front of all of our friends, in front of Charlie specifically, because I've told him this as well. I promise that I will not scare you with another episode for another two months. Wow. Yes.
Speaker A: This is such a good birthday gift.
Speaker B: You're welcome. Yes. Uh, this coming Monday, March 22, is our beautiful Shannon's birthday. I think you're welcome.
Speaker A: Giving away all my personal information oh, don't say my Social Security number.
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: It good.
Speaker B: But it is your birthday soon, and people should know that and wish you a happy birthday. Go wish Shannon a happy birthday on our Instagram through our email. However you want to rate, review, and subscribe for her birthday.
Speaker A: Yes, I accept new subscriptions and high streaming numbers as birthday gifts.
Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. So, yes, happy birthday to our Shannon. And you're welcome for your early birthday gift. Too much, man.
Speaker A: Thank you so much.
Speaker B: Um, no more crying.
Speaker A: Thank you. Well, you say that, but who knows?
Speaker B: I don't know. That portion is on you. I don't intend to make you cry.
Speaker A: So hopefully it'll be tears of laughter.
Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. Good tears. Precisely. Yeah.
Speaker A: All right, Emma, we have a lot to get to.
Speaker B: Yes. I'm so sorry.
Speaker A: It's okay. No apologies needed. I just want to dive right in. I'm, um, very excited in my notes document. Usually I like to have a little tie in, a little jokey joke at the beginning. Today, my podcast doc is just at the top. It just says intro, question mark. Question mark. So we're just going to jump right in. I have no jokey joke. So that was the intro tech.
Speaker B: Yay. Well done.
Speaker A: All right, so, Emma, today we are going to talk about or I'm going to tell you about the Kennedy curse.
Speaker B: Yay. Oh, wow. This is going to be a long episode.
Speaker A: Well, when we get towards the end, we do a little bit of a Wikipedia wrap up because, spoiler alert, friends, uh, a lot has happened to this family.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So we're going to do a little brief overview at the beginning, and then we're going to get into it.
Speaker B: Deep dive do I need to buckle in? I don't want to buckle into that car.
Speaker A: Yes, there's a lot of transportation, uh, methods that are maybe not ideal.
Speaker B: Okay, I'm going to buckle into my own go cart. Is that okay?
Speaker A: Sure.
Speaker B: Great. How do you buckle into a go cart? Is it across the hips.
Speaker A: Situation in.
Speaker B: Case you don't go rocketing out? Okay. I don't know. There we go. Done.
Speaker A: Great. So, for those of you who may not be aware, which I feel like is few of you, but for the sake of trying to be fully well researched on this podcast lol. Um, we're going to just do a little overview. So the Kennedy family, some would argue, is the closest thing that the United States ever had to a royal family in terms of public attention and hype and all of that kind of stuff. So the Kennedys were wealthy, classy, and heavily involved in politics, even up to this day, like to the current times.
Speaker B: Mhm, I forget that other Kennedys exist. Sorry, but I do.
Speaker A: There are literally so many.
Speaker B: There are thousands.
Speaker A: There are so many. So the Kennedy family originally emigrated from Ireland in 1849. They were Irish Catholics, which means they have a lot of kids.
Speaker B: Woo.
Speaker A: And they were opposed to Protestantism, which will become mildly important later on.
Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Speaker A: So from its earliest days, the Kennedy family was involved in US. Politics. Patrick and his wife Bridget were the first married Kennedy couple to come to the United States. And their youngest son, Patrick Joseph, nicknamed PJ. Kennedy, went into business and served in the Massachusetts state legislature from 1884. Also, I would recommend for this podcast, if you're like me, when I'm listening to audiobooks or podcasts where a lot of names are mentioned, I get a little confused. And it's extra confusing because the Kennedys like to reuse names because they Irish Catholic. Yes. So if you get confused, I would recommend googling like a family tree. Just, I try and be clear about seniors versus juniors versus for seconds and thirds in this, but just in case. So, PJ. Kennedy was the first of their, um, family to serve in US. Politics from 1884 to 1895. PJ and his wife, Mary Augusta Hickey, were children. No, they were once children, but they were parents to four children. The oldest of these four was Joseph Patrick Joe Kennedy SR. Okay, so he made lots of money in banking and security trading, which I, uh, wrote in my notes, parentheses, whatever that means. Security is trading.
Speaker B: Charlie would know. I have no clue.
Speaker A: So throughout his career, he was appointed by President FDR as the first chairman of the securities and Exchange Commission, the chairman of the Maritime Commission, and the US. Ambassador to the United Kingdom in the lead, um, up to World War II. So obviously he didn't have all those jobs at the same time, but throughout his career, he served in those various positions.
Speaker B: That's kind of cool.
Speaker A: And he, in fact, Joe Kennedy Senior, he at one point entertained the notion of running for president himself. This is a little quote for Vanity Fair in 119 thousand 40, before Franklin Roosevelt announced his candidacy for a third term, kennedy, then the ambassador to Great Britain, was often mentioned in the papers as one of the half dozen men likely to win the Democratic nomination. So he was probably going to run for president. And then FDR was like, yo, I'm going to flip the script and I'm going to run for a third term. And the country was like, yeah, we trust this guy.
Speaker B: So we've had them for long enough, might as well keep them.
Speaker A: So Joe Senior never made a run for the White House, but he definitely had this passion for politics. So Joseph P. Kennedy Senior and Rose Elizabeth Fitzgerald, who was the eldest daughter of Boston's mayor, were the parents of nine children.
Speaker B: Oh my gosh, I forgot this.
Speaker A: There's so many of them. It's true. And it's this family unit. Joe Senior and Rose and their nine children, it's this um, family unit and its descendants that rose to such public knowledge in a claim, many of them became victims of the so, um, called Kennedy Curse. So in many sources, Rose is described as an aloof and distant mother, like rarely hugging or nurturing her children, which I think is interesting, especially given the time, um, period. So after the births of her two eldest sons, she actually returned to her parents home in Boston and just left her children with the hired help.
Speaker B: Um, something was happening in her brain.
Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, postpartum depression, it's real for sure.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So at first, everyone kind of just pretended like nothing was wrong because that's the time period.
Speaker B: Mental health doesn't exist.
Speaker A: Oh, just wait.
Speaker B: I know.
Speaker A: So after several weeks, however, her father sent her back, quote, to where she belongs. So back home to her husband and her children. And apparently Rose was resentful of this, which I, um, think could make sense. She's been the eldest daughter of the mayor, so she's been kind of this social butterfly about town and now she's expected to be at home and not the center of attention really anymore. So understandable. And she turned um, her attention to her growing family, which she viewed as her, quote, new enterprise. Which is very interesting. I think I've tried to kind of highlight these moments throughout this whole story, um, throughout this whole history of the very calculated nature of this family's behavior at various points, which I think is very interesting to say the least. So in contrast to Rose, the senior Joe Kennedy was actually very engaged as a parent, especially for the standards of that time. He met with his children's teachers, he knew their study habits, he knew their friends. And um, I just thought that was an interesting discrepancy from maybe what you would expect.
Speaker B: Yeah. It may also be this is me knowing a little bit about this, but it might be a control thing.
Speaker A: Yes. I would say to an um extent in that he knows what's happening with them. It is very interesting. One of the articles that I read was more of a deep dive into the family life of, um, kind of the original nine and their parents. And it talked about when Joe SR. Was the presiding head of the table at family dinners. He was asking about friends or about school and when it was their mother, rose, it was more like reprimands, about behavior, like decorum kind of stuff.
Speaker B: Interesting.
Speaker A: And now we're going to get into what I've titled a list of tragedies.
Speaker B: Oh, no.
Speaker A: Yeah. So the series of unfortunate events begins with a tragedy that is essentially, at least in part of the family's own making. In 1918, the couple's eldest daughter, rose Marie, nicknamed Rosemary.
Speaker B: I like that.
Speaker A: That's a nickname I'm like. You just changed the inflection, but okay, I get it. Rosemary is a little easier to say than rosemary. Sure. But rosemary, um, kennedy was born in 1918. Unfortunately, the doctor that was meant to assist with the birth was running late, and the nurse that they had on hand was inexperienced and or ill informed. And she told rose to keep her legs shut to keep the baby inside, which meant that baby Rosemary was in the birth canal for nearly 2 hours and was deprived of oxygen while they waited for the doctor. And this judgment call, unfortunately, left the newborn with permanent challenges throughout her life. So she was developmentally delayed, struggling to learn to walk, speak, read, etc. E at what was kind of the acceptable rate of a typical child. And, um, while the Kennedy family did seek out specialized care for her, they sent her to a specific boarding school. She got individualized study with tutors and various helping kind of people. They did not acknowledge her learning or developmental differences publicly. It was, like, a shameful thing. They didn't want to talk about it. Yes, it would be sad if it was just like, oh, we're just, um, not really going to acknowledge that this is the lived experience of our child, but they also just straight up lied about what was going on. So her mother just, like, pretended nothing was amiss. Her parents, rose and, uh, Joe senior, they told women's day, like, the publication, that their daughter Rosemary was studying to become a kindergarten teacher and that she had all these plans. Like, you straight up wide.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I don't know why you would do that, because based on everything that she was displaying, it was not like she was going to catch up and be at that level. So it's not like she could just fulfill the live image. Why wouldn't you just say, like, oh, our daughter's very private, she's very shy. Like, she doesn't want to be out.
Speaker B: And about, I guess, because they're hoping that every kid has their own accomplishment, that they can be like, look, see, having nine kids is fine. I guess having nine kids is fine. You can have as many children as you want. I just can't imagine it. It's a lot of attention.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's true. I mean, they did, um, have a living, like, made and cooked.
Speaker B: Yeah. That feels necessary.
Speaker A: True. And then, um, here's just this quote that just breaks my heart. Diaries written by her. So by Rosemary in the late 1930s and published in the Reveal a young woman whose life was filled with outings to the opera, tea dances, dress fittings, and other social interests. So she wasn't just a lump on a log.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: She wasn't coming out and about.
Speaker B: Yeah. And obviously, if she's writing about it and is reliving the experience through writing about it, obviously she enjoyed it.
Speaker A: Right, exactly.
Speaker B: She could have been, like, a sweet, uh, little socialite for an entire life. That would have been so sweet.
Speaker A: In 1938, Rosemary was presented to the Queen of England as a part of her father's service as the US. Ambassador to the UK.
Speaker B: It just reminds me of Bridger today.
Speaker A: Well, exactly. She was named, like, debutante, um, of the season or something like that. And I literally almost wrote down that, um, fact and wrote like she was the diamond of the season. She reportedly, um, practiced her royal courtsy for hours, only to trip and nearly fall during the actual event.
Speaker B: Oh, no.
Speaker A: But apparently Queen Liz and King George did not acknowledge the Foible. They just kept smiling like nothing was wrong, which I think is very charming. And so they were just like, you're doing good, sweetie.
Speaker B: That's Jennifer Lawrence at the Oscars moment of, like, you just got to recover. You just got to stand up, smile.
Speaker A: Truly. So, uh, by age 23, rosemary's behavior was still very erratic and unpredictable. At times, she would throw, um, tantrums. She was also prone to having seizures just because of her from birth. Um, she was faced with challenges because of that traumatic birth, but the family feared that these outbursts would cause bad press. Bring shame upon the family. Guys, Emma's rolling her eyes back.
Speaker B: Dishonor on your cow.
Speaker A: Truly. There might be an earthquake in Williamsburg. Based on Emma's Eye role. Um, so because they were concerned about her behavior, they decided that she would undergo this new procedure, which is a prefrontal lobotomy. In the time, this very dangerous procedure was thought to be helpful in curing a variety of mental illnesses, which yeah, if you cut through part of someone's brain, it'll take care of a lot of things, like their personality.
Speaker B: Yeah. You scramble their frontal lobe, you end up with not a person.
Speaker A: Indeed. I'm not going to go, uh, into the graphic details, but my favorite Murder, recently did an episode about the doctor who designed this procedure, which, no surprise to anyone, has now been disproven as any sort of medically sound situation. So if you want to check that out, um, it's in the show notes, and you can learn about that.
Speaker B: Uh, I can't even describe how I'm feeling right now, because that is literally one of the worst things I've ever heard, because I do know how they do that. I'm not going to talk about it right now because it is very graphic, but it's that just makes my, uh, whole body want to crinkle up into a ball.
Speaker A: Well, it made me even more mad, because a lot of the sources about Rosemary Kennedy, they describe her as, like, having a procedure or undergoing this procedure. No, it was a nonconsensual lobotomy.
Speaker B: They were trying to, quote, unquote, fix her to make her normal in their eyes of what would be okay, um, for the family to endure in terms of media coverage, like, oh, my gosh, you've just destroyed a person's brain.
Speaker A: Again. It's not like she was not saying that if she was on one end of the spectrum, this is never justified. Right?
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Unacceptable. But it's not like her behavior. It's not like she was the Tasmanian devil all the time.
Speaker B: Yeah. She wasn't joining.
Speaker A: She was going to events. In one of the articles they were talking about, she attended this dance, and her older brother Joe accompanied her, and nobody knew anything was because she was significant. She passed as, quote, unquote, normal. She was probably in danger.
Speaker B: Fun. She was hanging out with her brother. She was out in the world. She was enjoying herself. And I'm sure after this procedure, she could basically do nothing but sit on the couch and eat potatoes out of a bowl.
Speaker A: Well, you are correct, Emma. The, uh, lobotomy, unfortunately left Rosemary unable to walk or talk.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A: She was immediately institutionalized at a facility in Wisconsin and basically didn't see her family for the next 20 years.
Speaker B: They're Connecticut people, right? Like, they're eastern seaboard at least.
Speaker A: Yeah. Massachusetts, Connecticut, they just were, like, ship.
Speaker B: Off to Wisconsin so we never have to see or talk to her. Why did you even get the lobotomy? Why did you even have to do that? If you really just didn't want her in your life, you could have shipped. That's not the better solution.
Speaker A: But they were thinking, oh, then we won't have to worry about her, and she can stay around. But it went wrong because it was.
Speaker B: A lobotomy anyway, so she did not.
Speaker A: Um, see her family for the next 20 years, which might have after that. Who would want to see your family? But anyway, eunice.
Speaker B: Eunice?
Speaker A: That's a name.
Speaker B: Oh, Yunice.
Speaker A: Yunice Kennedy Shriver. Uh, her sister did grow closer with Rosemary later in life, and Eunice went on to found the Special Olympics and the Joseph P. Kennedy Junior Foundation, which researches developmental and intellectual disabilities, which, yes, on one hand, here's a cookie crumb, but on the other hand, why would you name it after your brother?
Speaker B: That's a good point.
Speaker A: And not your sister, who had developmental and intellectual disabilities.
Speaker B: Maybe it was like, again, a media thing of, like, this will be the better choice in terms of I feel.
Speaker A: Like the better media move would have been to be like, hey, we messed up back in the, uh, 1940s. We acknowledged that that was messed up.
Speaker B: When are they going to say sorry for their actions? They're politicians.
Speaker A: Yeah, we'll get into that more. But anybody else, uh, I want to.
Speaker B: Yell at at the very least, there was a tiny silver lining and that the Special Olympics now exist, because that is already an incredible thing.
Speaker A: Yes, indeed. So that kind of concludes the sad chapter of the Kennedy curse. That is Rosemary Kennedy's story. Again, um, partially to blame on the family. Well, honestly, but her birth was not advantageous.
Speaker B: No, the nurses did it wrong. I just, um, can't imagine holding a full baby inside of your body for 2 hours when all it wants to do is come out.
Speaker A: Yeah, I don't need to that would be possible, but I feel like, uh.
Speaker B: Even if you crossed your legs, it would be like, well, it doesn't matter. Here it is.
Speaker A: I don't know. I don't I cannot speak from experience.
Speaker B: Me neither. I just talk about trauma.
Speaker A: All right, well, moving on to our next chapter, turn the page.
Speaker B: I don't know why, um, did your.
Speaker A: Book make that sound?
Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know if I can do a page turn sound.
Speaker A: Anyhow any of whom like his father before him, joseph Kennedy Senior, groomed his son for a life in the political spotlight.
Speaker B: Because, of course yes.
Speaker A: So the eldest son of Joseph and Rose, named Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. Was raised with a political career in mind after his birth. Shortly after his birth, his maternal grandfather, Mayor Fitzgerald, announced to the press that this boy would one day be president. Dude, he wasn't even like he was fresh fresh out of the oven in school. Joe Junior was well liked. He was a competitive and healthy athlete and a good student. Kind of your all American boy.
Speaker B: Red blooded American. Yeah.
Speaker A: Upon reaching college, he reportedly told some friends that he was going to be, quote, the first Catholic president of the United States. So at least at that point, he can kind of have a little bit of say in his path and his destiny. But I just, um, think it's funny that at least that one has a little more validity than the newborn child. What? Maybe he wanted to be a painter. You don't know.
Speaker B: The baby is shaking hands and kissing babies.
Speaker A: He's rolling over in the nursery.
Speaker B: Hello. Thank you for your vote.
Speaker A: Um, okay. We did that. I, uh, was going to read you the same quote again. I was like, no, we already checked out. So, in his schooling before college, he was educated at a Protestant boarding school, which his Catholic mother really did not approve of. But Joe Senior was like, nope, he's going to go, and he's going to get well educated. He's going to brush elbows with the elites. It's going to prepare him. He's going to have a springboard for the rest of his career, the rest of his life.
Speaker B: Not a bad idea.
Speaker A: And then after that experience at the boarding school, he spent a year abroad between prep school and college at the University of London under the formal tutelage of socialist professor Harold Lasky. And it's interesting that he was studying under a socialist Jewish man because, um, his father was very much a Catholic, anti Semitic capitalist. But Joe Senior was like, no, I want him to be educated in all aspects, because when you're in politics, you have to be able to see other.
Speaker B: Perspectives that's very openminded.
Speaker A: Yes, sort of. But then it's also like, I don't know, it's just kind of gross feeling.
Speaker B: It is gross feeling. And I think it's because the knowledge of you, this dude is very much, like, against the things that he's telling his son to learn means that he's going to try and use that to be like, yeah, but they're wrong. Like, you can learn from them, but they're telling you the wrong things. Like, you know, it all. Yeah.
Speaker A: Well, in one of the articles said that Joe Jr. Did come back from London more liberal than his father, but with his Catholicism intact, which I thought was interesting.
Speaker B: His crop circle of Virgin Mary hadn't been breached.
Speaker A: Yes, indeed. Call back to the previous episode. We love it.
Speaker B: Had not, um, been breached.
Speaker A: I can't. So Joe Jr. Uh, graduated in 1938 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in government from Harvard, and then he enrolled at Harvard Law School. So nothing but the best. We're taking care of business.
Speaker B: Taking care of business.
Speaker A: So Joe Junior, he was a Massachusetts delicate.
Speaker B: No, delicate. He was a delicate little flower.
Speaker A: Joe Jr. Was a Massachusetts delegate to the Democratic National Convention in he reportedly planned to run for the US. House of um representatives from Massachusetts 11th Congressional District in 1946. However, he left before his final year of law school at Harvard to enlist in the US. Naval Reserve in June, 1941. Okay, so we're approaching World War II. Things are happening. He trained, um to be a naval aviator, and upon completion of training, was sent to Britain and became a member of Bomber Squadron um 110. He completed mhm two tours of duty in the winter of 1943 to 1944 with 25 combat missions. And at that point, he was eligible to return home to the United States. But instead, he decided to volunteer for Operation Aphrodite in 1944. This mission entailed dropping explosive laden drones in the general direction of military targets.
Speaker B: General direction.
Speaker A: Well, the idea is that you would drop them. You would get them going in the right direction, so then the remote control aspect could take over. Obviously, the technology was not as sophisticated, so it's kind of just like giving a shove in the right direction.
Speaker B: Military precision. Look.
Speaker A: Just look. I don't know.
Speaker B: Look at it. Look.
Speaker A: So, on August 12, 1944, lieutenant Kennedy's plane exploded over East Suffolk, England, killing him and his copilot, lieutenant Wilford J. Willy Kennedy was just 29 years old.
Speaker B: Oh, wow. I didn't know he was that young.
Speaker A: And the cause of this accident was never officially determined. The weight of political legacy now fell on Joe Jr's younger brother, the second Kennedy child, John F. Kennedy.
Speaker B: We know this one well.
Speaker A: When he heard news of his brother's death, JFK reportedly told his friend Red Fey, quote, now the burden falls on me. And then in a different article to Vanity Fair, um, Jack Kennedy once said it was like being drafted. My father wanted his oldest son in politics. Wanted isn't the right word. He demanded it. You know, my father will come back to JFK.
Speaker B: Okay, we've got a few other back.
Speaker A: We have other tragedies to describe to you.
Speaker B: Attend to.
Speaker A: Indeed. So, next up, we have Kathleen Kennedy, whose nickname I absolutely love. Her nickname was Kick. So she was called Kick Kennedy.
Speaker B: That's so cute.
Speaker A: Which is so precious. And the photo I have of her for, um, the Instagram is so cute. Like, she has this bicycle. She's just we love it so much.
Speaker B: That's so cute.
Speaker A: Uh, so Kick Kennedy was the fourth of the nine Kennedy children and the second daughter. She spent a good deal of time in Britain due to her father's position as ambassador to the UK. And she really met a lot of people. She drived well. She really enjoyed her time there.
Speaker B: Her name was Kick. Like, how can you not?
Speaker A: While she was working for the Red Cross over in Britain, she met and began a romantic relationship with William Cavendish, the Marquess of Harrington, known to his friends and family as Billy. And Kathleen's mother, Rose, did not approve of this relationship because Billy was a Protestant.
Speaker B: Ma'am.
Speaker A: Englickin.
Speaker B: Ma'am. But he's a Marques.
Speaker A: She doesn't care.
Speaker B: He's a Marquest.
Speaker A: She doesn't care.
Speaker B: Billy is not careful. Come on.
Speaker A: Rose Kennedy does not care about earthly money if your soul is at risk. Emma.
Speaker B: All right, fair fine.
Speaker A: So Rose saw that his Anglican faith was an affront to the Kennedy family's Roman Catholicism. She reportedly even tried to, um, delay their wedding, which I, um, would just love to know more about. What's that monster in law situation look like? Right, exactly. She was, however, not successful. Um, Kathleen Kennedy and Billy Cavendish, married in May of 1944. And Kathleen.
Speaker B: Good, um.
Speaker A: Tragically, Billy died in battle just four months later, leaving Kathleen a widow.
Speaker B: Oh, no.
Speaker A: She did journey back once to the. US to visit her family. But after that, she did decide to remain in Great Britain despite the wartime dangers, which I think is interesting. Nice. I don't know.
Speaker B: It might be that she felt like it was more like home than right.
Speaker A: She wants to go back to staying with your mother, who tried to delay.
Speaker B: Your wedding and would probably say something to the effective I told you so when your husband ended up dying.
Speaker A: You know. But ever the social butterfly, the Lady Harrington then struck up a romantic relationship with the 8th Earl Fitzwilliam.
Speaker B: I'm a loving Kick. Kick is great.
Speaker A: Whose name are you ready for the full name of the 8th Earl Fitzwilliam?
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: William. Henry lawrence peter wentsworth. Fitzwilliams the last two are hyphenated for anyone that cares. I love that he went by Peter.
Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Speaker A: You can't just go around being like, I'm the athr Fitzwilliam. How do you do?
Speaker B: I would.
Speaker A: He was very scandalously, um, in the midst of a divorce when they met, which only added insult to injury for Kathleen's mother, Rose, because Fitzwilliam was also a Protestant.
Speaker B: Oh, no.
Speaker A: Rose even went so far as to threaten to disown Kathleen if she married Fitzwillia.
Speaker B: I would have been like, fine, bye.
Speaker A: But I feel like you don't really need the money if you're marrying an Earl.
Speaker B: Also, you're the widow of a Marquest, so that's got to have something in it. Like, at this point, you're already disconnected from your family in that way.
Speaker A: I don't know the details of the finances.
Speaker B: That's fair.
Speaker A: However, Kathleen would not be dissuade.
Speaker B: Well, of course not. This is Kick we're talking about.
Speaker A: Yes. Right. Kick Kennedy has no time for your garbage, Rose.
Speaker B: I just love it.
Speaker A: She seems great. Indeed. In May 1948, Kathleen learned that her father would be traveling to Paris. And so, in an effort to gain his blessing for her upcoming plans to marry Fitzwilliam, she decided to fly to France to meet with her father.
Speaker B: Kennedy should not get on planes. I'm already feeling gross about this. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker A: Unfortunately, the couple's plane never arrived. On May 13, 1948, en route to France, their plane encountered dramatic turbulence, rising and falling several thousand feet at a time and eventually crashed. Kathleen Kennedy and Peter um Fitzwilliam were instantly killed, along with their pilot and navigator.
Speaker B: Why Kennedys? Don't get on planes. Just don't go anywhere. Don't, um, go anywhere you want to survive. Don't go anywhere. Okay.
Speaker A: But at this point, the only plane death that had occurred was her older brother, and that was a wartime accident. Yeah, but Kick, she wanted to marry this man. Emma.
Speaker B: I know.
Speaker A: She was making it happen. Joseph uh, Kennedy senior. Her father was the only Kennedy to attend the funeral, which was put on by the Cavendish family. So by her late husband's family, which I'm like, shout out to you classy British people. Yeah, I mean, she was trying to marry someone else only a couple of years later, but I'm sure she's technically.
Speaker B: A Cavendish still because she wasn't married.
Speaker A: I just feel like that would be an awkward yeah, but.
Speaker B: She didn't love their son.
Speaker A: Right? I think it would be an interesting Christmas dinner.
Speaker B: It would be very interesting, but yes.
Speaker A: So Joseph Kennedy was the only Kennedy, um, to attend the funeral, which was held in Europe. Rose reportedly later called Kathleen's untimely death quote, um, god, pointing a finger.
Speaker B: Okay. I hate this woman. Yeah, I really don't like her.
Speaker A: Not great.
Speaker B: I really don't like her. You can have like I'm sure she has some mental health issues that were not taken care of because of the time period, but woman, those are the words you choose to use about your daughter's death. Oh my gosh. Alright, so maybe she's the curse. Continue.
Speaker A: Flash forward to Jack Kennedy. A-K-A. JFK. Is now President of the United States. His wife, Jackie gives birth to Patrick Bouvoir Kennedy on August 7, and he is premature at the time of his death. He is premature at the time of his birth. This was Jacqueline Kennedy's fifth pregnancy in 1955. She had, uh, a miscarriage in 1956. They had a daughter named Arabelle who was still born. Their daughter Caroline was born in, um, 1957. And JFK Jr. Was born in late 1960, just 17 days after his father's election to President. Patrick, who's this new little baby. He was the first baby born to an active president since the 1800s. Which I thought was interesting, but also makes sense. Like, you don't really want to deal with being pregnant while also being First Lady of the United States.
Speaker B: Yeah. Although I'm sure that's hard to maneuver, but yeah, true.
Speaker A: Well, also they were Catholic.
Speaker B: That's true.
Speaker A: Unfortunately, Patrick Bouvard Kennedy dies, uh, at two days old due to respiratory distress syndrome, and without going super in depth because, um, this is already going to be a longer episode. JFK himself had many health issues for basically his entire life. One of the sources in the show, um, notes, goes very in depth into his childhood. And, uh, it's just to sum it up, he was basically very pale and frail, especially in comparison to his older brother, Joe Jr. If you looked at the two eldest Kennedy brothers, you would never pick JFK as the one that would be this political icon because truly, reading about their childhoods, it feels like a novel the way it all played out of, like the expectations are on this brother, but then he tragically dies and the other brother who is never expected to take the throne. Not the throne. It's so interesting. It's super in depth. It's in the show notes. It's a Vanity Fair piece, uh, titled Two Sons, One Destiny, which is very interesting.
Speaker B: Wow. It does sound like a novel, though. It has all of those hallmarks.
Speaker A: It's like, no way, it happened. And then I wrote attempt at a lighter hearted fun fact. Jackie Kennedy's. Mother attended Sweetbriar College.
Speaker B: Yes, I knew that one.
Speaker A: But also she attended Barnard College, so she must have transferred.
Speaker B: She graduated, I think, from Barnard.
Speaker A: Wrong. There's no record of her completing her courses study at Barnard. Oh, but who needs a college degree in the early Times if you're going to get married? Who needs it?
Speaker B: Sweet raio.
Speaker A: So that's my attempt to the fun fact.
Speaker B: And her last name was Bouvoir, right?
Speaker A: Jackie Kennedy is maiden names.
Speaker B: Bouvoir.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's my attempt to the fun fact.
Speaker B: I can't get over the pale and frail comment because I was like me.
Speaker A: Truly you pale and frail indeed. Moving forward, the year 1963 was not, however, finished with the Kennedy family. On November 2263, JFK and the First Lady were riding in an open air limo as part of a procession through Dallas, Texas. This little tidbit makes what follows even more sad to me. But this is Jackie Kennedy's first public outing since the death of their newborn son.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I didn't know that. Yeah, um I didn't either.
Speaker A: So, the President was shot by former Marine Lee Harvey Oswald and was pronounced dead shortly thereafter. Oswald was apprehended on the same day, but denied responsibility for the assassination, claiming that he was only guilty of shooting a Dallas police officer. So he claimed that he was just being framed as a patsy for the assassination of JFK. We couldn't learn more, however, because Oswald was shot on live television while in custody of the Dallas Police Department by local nightclub, um owner Jack Ruby. And therefore, Oswald was never formally charged with the assassination.
Speaker B: This is where conspiracy happens.
Speaker A: In 1964, the Warren Commission concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin of JFK. However, in 1979, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations or the HSCA.
Speaker B: I didn't know that existed.
Speaker A: I guess it does. The HSCA concluded that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy and that Oswald did not act alone. And Emma, that brings us to the timing of today's episode. I have three words for you the, uh, Winter Soldier.
Speaker B: The end.
Speaker A: Case closed. Case closed. That is why, like the Kennedy curse, you guys have been on our brainstorming list of topics for the podcast since before the podcast even existed. But on Today, when you are listening to this on the day this episode comes out, you know what else comes out? Emma?
Speaker B: I do. But would you like to tell the people?
Speaker A: Yeah. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier comes out on busy clubs. I'm so excited. I have to be at work at 09:00 A.m., but I'm going to wake up early to watch it.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. What time does it come out?
Speaker A: I have to look it up, but.
Speaker B: I know the evening.
Speaker A: I watched, um, the Wanda Vision finale at, like, eight in the morning.
Speaker B: Well, then maybe they just send them out. Maybe it's, like, midnight or something.
Speaker A: Exactly. But anyway, I think that solves the case. Lee Harvey Oswald might have been involved, but the Winter uh, Soldier was the person that assassinated JFK. The end. But mhm just aside, truthfully, the assassination of JFK could be its own specific episode of this podcast because there are so many conspiracy theories. These include the alleged involvement, um, of the CIA, the Mafia, Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson, Cuban Prime Minister Fidel Castro, the KGB, or some combination of the above.
Speaker B: I would be totally fine if you did, like, a follow up episode, because I want to hear about it.
Speaker A: I'd be totally fine if you wanted to do it, too.
Speaker B: That's true. I could actually do my research for months.
Speaker A: What are you talking about? You do your research for your episode?
Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I feel like I do it. I figure out what my episode is going to be like two days before we record, and I'm like, oh, no, I have to figure out all my research.
Speaker A: Please let the record reflect that I did not do all of this research last night.
Speaker B: I'm very proud of you.
Speaker A: I did it the last two nights.
Speaker B: I'm very proud of you. Honestly, that is an accomplishment for us, you guys. We are perpetually busy people in whose downtime we decide to binge watch television and TikTok and listen to podcasts and, you know, take care of ourselves and clean our rooms and things. But we do it for you.
Speaker A: We do it for you.
Speaker B: We do it for you.
Speaker A: I did get to go to bed last night at, like, 1215 until 130.
Speaker B: So I'm so proud.
Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker B: You're welcome.
Speaker A: All right, now that everyone is back from listening, um, or from watching the first episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier, because I don't blame you if you pause and ran over to your little TV. Next up, we're still talking about the assassination assassination. We're still talking about the assassination of JFK, but I think this part is fascinating. If you remember what I was talking about at the beginning, about how calculated this family can be about their image. We've already touched on that a little bit in terms of removing Rosemary, um, Kennedy, essentially, from the equation. They even downplayed kick Kennedy's, uh, death in an attempt to help JFK's political career. They didn't want to distract from him.
Speaker B: Yeah, we don't want to distract from our son's political, um, career when our daughter just died a tragic death.
Speaker A: Well, it was also viewed as a scandalous situation, which makes sense, but yes, okay, fine. Doesn't excuse their behavior. She did start her romantic relationship with Fitzwilliam while he was in the process of being divorced. So he was technically married, which for some people some people married is married and separated isn't an option, especially if you're Catholic. But anyway, on the same day of the tragedy, of, um, JFK's assassination. This is when first lady Jackie Kennedy cements her husband legacy in the eyes of history. She's quoted by Life magazine as saying the following don't let it be forgotten that once there was a spot for a brief, shining moment that was known as Camelot. She's quoting the musical, which you can cross off on your bingo card, by the way. There will be great presidents again, but there will never be another Camelot. It will never be that way again. And then I have a little blurb from one of my sources. Quote from the photo of Kennedy's, um, son saluting his father's coffin to pictures of Kennedy gallivanting with his brothers. This somber yet romantic iconography was curated entirely by Jacqueline Kennedy. Even though she's clearly going through a lot of stuff, she's like, we're going to shape this narrative, and we're going to make it so that people remember him as, like, this golden boy. I mean, icon.
Speaker B: At that point, I say, why not? Because the amount of trauma that she's gone through might as well try and make something good out of it.
Speaker A: But, wow, this makes me want to watch the movie, the biopic they made about her and read all the books I can about her. Because Jackie Kennedy, she accompanies her husband's body back to Andrews Air Force Base here in the DC. Area, wearing the same suit that she wore during the shooting. And when her assistant or someone on her staff asked her if she wanted to clean up, if she wanted to change, she said, quote, Let them see what they've done. So she gets off the plane, and I have a photo of this on the Instagram. She gets off the plane and her suit has her husband's blood stains on it. And this stained Chanel suit, which is, like, bright pink, is now part of the National Archives. It was officially, um, gifted by Jackie's daughter, Caroline, following her mother's passing. The Archives had the suit since 1960, um, four. But because the original on loan person passed away, they had to pay for work, essentially. But Caroline did that with the provision, um, that the suit not be seen, uh, by the public until 2100 and 321. Three. So we're never going to see this in our lifetime, Emma, unless we sneak into the archives. Well, we, um, don't, um, have special actually, like no, like they talked about in the article. This is also it's in the New York Times. It's in the show notes. They talked about how other artifacts from the assassination, um, if you have a special research permit, like, you can go and, like, see the gun that Oswald used or see different things. But there aren't really any reports of anyone being able to see the suit.
Speaker B: I find that interesting, though, because in terms of conservation, as someone who does this, I don't do fabric textile conservation. Um, but they would have to have someone taking care of it.
Speaker A: Um, yes, but that's part of the staff. That's not the public.
Speaker B: Well, that's what I'm saying. We infiltrate the staff. Shannon.
Speaker A: You want us to national Treasure?
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Jackie Kennedy is it weird that I.
Speaker B: Want to see that?
Speaker A: I mean, you can see Photos, and.
Speaker B: The archives also have the pillow that, um, Abraham Lincoln died on.
Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, and Ford Speeder has, like, his hat and his cloak that he was wearing when he was shot. In the article, they talk about how conservatives can't think of another item of such iconic clothing that's in museum collection, but also not viewable by the public.
Speaker B: I mean, fair. That's a very niche space anyway.
Speaker A: But I just think that it's very interesting.
Speaker B: It's fascinating.
Speaker A: And the article goes into it a little bit further, but there is no official confirmation, um, of who initially donated the suit. But all the sources around Jackie Kennedy are, um, essentially sum up that nothing would have happened without her say so. It was probably her.
Speaker B: I would imagine so. Especially with the way that she held herself during that day and the way that she cultivated the story surrounding it. There's no way that she didn't say, give this to the National Archives.
Speaker A: Yeah. And then to kind of conclude this, wrap up this little section, I have another quote. Kennedy's time in the White House following his inauguration in 1961, to that dark day in November, nearly three days later, was cast as a time of burgeoning cheer and optimism. A brief golden moment cut short before it could blossom into the full, lasting brilliance of a golden age. And I think for a lot of people, that's how they remember John F. Kennedy. Despite the fact that there are so many accounts and well documented accounts of his philandari, his misbehavior. He was not loyal to his wife whatsoever.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: At all. He had affairs with many people, famous.
Speaker B: Um, and otherwise and potentially Marilyn Monroe.
Speaker A: Indeed. And was Marilyn Monroe taken out by government agents? Relationship with JFK?
Speaker B: That's one that I already know that I'm going to stack. We're going to get there, and it's going to be fun, and it's going to be great. I'm so excited.
Speaker A: Well, I wouldn't say fun.
Speaker B: Well, no, you're right. It's not genuinely fun. It's interesting.
Speaker A: You guys know, this is not you.
Speaker B: Should know by this point, it isn't that we find any of these tragedies or, like, conspiracies that people buy into fun for real.
Speaker A: It's just fun to research on a rare occasion. Some of them are fun. Like Denver Airport is fun.
Speaker B: That's true.
Speaker A: That one was fun because it's silly.
Speaker B: Yeah. Um.
Speaker A: And then in my notes, I typed Lol. At this point in my notes, alana Del Rey song came on in my playlist. And I think that's so funny because I read online somebody made the joke that all of Lana del Rey's music sounds the way it does because she wanted to get with JFK, and she never had the opportunity to.
Speaker B: What? Like, she's the musical version of Marilyn.
Speaker A: Monroe, but she's obsessed with him and the vibe. And I feel like once you hear that and then you listen to her music, you're like, that checks out. You have, like, JFK daddy issues. So I just thought it was funny that it came up on the playlist.
Speaker B: Uh, feel free to listen to Lana for yourself and make your decision.
Speaker A: I mean, I wouldn't, because she's kind of problematic.
Speaker B: She is problematic into it, but her music is interesting.
Speaker A: Sure. So at this point, Emma, if you were a member of the Kennedy family, wouldn't you just avoid airplanes in general?
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I already do, but yeah.
Speaker A: 64. JFK's younger brother, Senator Ted Kennedy, was in a plane crash on his way to campaign in Massachusetts. Fortunately, Kennedy and his wife survived, but his aide, Edward Moss and the pilot, Edwin Zimney died. Kennedy himself spent five months in the hospital and experienced lifelong back injuries as a result of this accident. Next up, we have Champagne's younger brother, Robert. Robert served as a political support throughout the President's career, eventually serving as his Attorney General. Following his brother's assassination, robert, um, gained some political standing himself four years after the tragedy of his brother's death, robert won the California Democratic Presidential primary on June 5, 1968. Unfortunately, he would never have the chance to truly campaign for the office held by his late brother, as he, too, was assassinated shortly after midnight. So he just won the Democratic primary in California shortly after midnight. Uh, RFK was shot by a man named Serhan Visara Serhan, with a 22 pistol in the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. RFK died shortly thereafter at the young age of 32. And Sir Han was originally sentenced to death, but is now serving a life sentence for the murder of Robert F. Kennedy because, uh, California abolished the death penalty. So he's serving a life sentence in California. And so Han, he is a Palestinian, and he reportedly said that he killed Kennedy because he supported Israel. So that's the end of that.
Speaker B: Golly. It's just like, at every turn, there's just something. But I think this has the ability and I think Jackie saw this and used it to her to the advantage of the Kennedys that because they seem to all have, um, perished young or, you know, tragedy strikes them young, that there is the ability to create this golden narrative out of it all, regardless of problematic things. Um, they're able to make a beautiful narrative, um, out of tragedy.
Speaker A: Yeah. So now we're going to circle back to Ted Kennedy out of everyone in this family has a lot of luck in the midst of all this mess. However, would not recommend getting into any sort of vehicle with him if you ever go back in time travel. Would not recommend getting in any sort of plane, train, automobile with Ted Kennedy. So on July 18, Ted Kennedy accidentally drove his car off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts, which unfortunately resulted in the drowning death of his 28 year old passenger, Mary Jo Capeckney. Kennedy was able to escape the car and supposedly tried to rescue Mary Jo.
Speaker B: Regardless of his back injury.
Speaker A: However, mhm once he reached the shore, he swam to shore. He returned to his hotel room for the night and did not contact the police. The authorities were not called until around 08:00 a.m. When the sunken car was spotted by some local fishermen. A diver concluded that Capecny had actually died of asphyxiation, not drowning. She'd been breathing through an air bubble for three to 4 hours waiting for rescue.
Speaker B: That's awful.
Speaker A: Yeah. So that implies that if he had gone to get to believe it's possible that she could have been saved.
Speaker B: Well and even if he could have seen that she was still alive oh, my gosh. That's also, I feel like, a, um, story that could be very much like an entire podcast episode, because it is rife with conspiracy.
Speaker A: Um oh, is it?
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: All right. Kennedy asserted that he was not under the influence of alcohol at the time of the crash. But I'm like, why else would you like I mean, I guess, yes, you crashed in a car, and you almost round yourself, so you might be in shock, but I don't see how you can swim to shore and then get back to your hotel room if you're so dramatically affected. You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, if you're so dramatically affected that you don't call the police, uh, then, yeah, you might have been wrong. Also, why did you drive off a bridge? In his televised statement a week later, um, the Senator said that on the night of the accident, he wondered, quote, whether some awful curse did actually hang over all the Kennedys. And this is the first public acknowledgement by a member of the Kennedy family of this seemingly disproportionate amount of misfortune that they had faced. In 2018, there was a movie titled Chapaquidic that was released, and it looks at the accident and the power of the Kennedy family as they work to save their image save his image, his political career. And while he did, Ted Kennedy did continue on in politics as a Senator. This incident, and what I think is his poor behavior in its aftermath likely kept him from ever running for the office of President, which I think is interesting. It's like, oh, Americans only care to do research about the background of the President, but they don't care about their state senators.
Speaker B: Or just the name. Like, they're just like, well, he could do all of these awful things, but he's a Kennedy, I guess.
Speaker A: Right. And now we're entering the section that I've titled the Wiki Rundown of Tragedy, because I got to a point where I was like, I cannot go in depth into all of these more recent incidents. I will note that I am leaving out incidents of what I view to be bad behavior. So various Kennedys have faced charges for sexual assault, murder, public intoxication. But to me, those feel like a separate category outside of this curse. Because that's really, like, you chose that behavior. Maybe some people would argue it's like, oh, it's something in their blood, it's something in their destiny that I don't buy into that. So if you're expecting certain incidents to be mentioned and they aren't, I clearly think that's bad behavior. All right, here we go. Rapid fire. In the early 1960s, the original Joseph Kennedy Senior, he goes mute following a stroke. So unfortunate. November 1773. Edward M. Kennedy, Jr. At age twelve, has his right leg surgically amputated as a result of bone cancer. He's the son of Senator Ted Kennedy. Uh, and according to Barack Obama's most recent book, this Experience with Edward Kennedy Jr. Inspired a passion in the Senator for accessible health care for all. And he called health care for all, quote, the cause of my life. So the fact that Obama was able to pass, um, obamacare health care for all within the Senator's lifetime was a very big deal, um, for him. And that's cool. All right, um, David A. Kennedy dies of a drug overdose in a Palm Beach, Florida hotel room. He is the fourth of Robert Kennedy's eleven kids.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I did not know he had that many children. He was only, um, 32 when he died.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Holy crap, man.
Speaker A: Irish Catholics. And he actually heard the news about his father's assassination on live television while he was alone in the family hotel room. And I believe he was only, like, 1210 or twelve at that time. So that's incredibly traumatic if you're just, like, watching the news by yourself. And it's like, BTW, your dad died.
Speaker B: I'm sorry, I just got, um, scared out of my mind. The cat is scratching at the closet door and all I could hear is, like, the scratching noises. And it terrified me for a moment.
Speaker A: It's the monkey. He's coming to you.
Speaker B: Don't even I almost went and found he's back in his spot. So I don't know what happened, but he's back in his spot. I almost brought him to sit here, but then I was like, I don't want to look at him, so no, I know.
Speaker A: You'd have to share the space. Are you letting the cat in?
Speaker B: I don't know if she's still there. It wasn't the cat, it was my mother. Mhm. Oh, she left a note. Give me a second.
Speaker A: And now I'm going to talk about Emma while she's not here. Emma is so silly.
Speaker B: She says they are gone for an hour if you want to eat something. The workmen downstairs that terrified me. I thought it was the cat. Scratching. It was her putting a tax return envelope.
Speaker A: With that that contrast when I was at your house, because your father, the bone shaman, was taking out my wisdom teeth at his office. It wasn't, like, on the back deck or anything, but I heard a meow outside my guest room door, and I thought it was you because that's what you would do in college. And when you lived in this house with me, you would meow at the door. So I meowed back, and then the door didn't open, and I was like, oh, weird. And I went and opened the door, and it was actually your brother's cat coming, uh, to say hi to me. But I thought she was you.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, not a bad situation, though. It ends up not being your best friend. Uh, but a cat.
Speaker A: I love her. She is everyone's best friend.
Speaker B: Yes, she is. She is the sweetest cat. She's a lot, but she's the sweetest.
Speaker A: Yeah. All right.
Speaker B: Sorry. We're back.
Speaker A: It's okay. Brief interlude for the tragedy. And now we're back.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: So on December 31, michael Lemoyne Kennedy died in a skiing accident at age 39 after crashing into a tree in Aspen, Colorado.
Speaker B: Jeez.
Speaker A: He is Robert Kennedy's. 6th Child And the accident was described, and I do not want to speak ill of the dead, but the following statement is about the most rich white boy, uh, thing I've ever read in my life.
Speaker B: Play it on me.
Speaker A: They were, quote, playing American football on skis.
Speaker B: Um what?
Speaker A: So I think they were just, like, tossing a football back and forth, like, maybe keep away, but they were on the slopes on skis.
Speaker B: Okay. You know those photos of, like, uh, this is why most women last longer than men. And it's like a ladder, like, almost horizontal, between, uh, two walls over a staircase. This is what that reminds me of.
Speaker A: Yeah. And also, the inquest revealed that he wasn't wearing a helmet or any other kind of safety gear. Not great. It was also new year's, though.
Speaker B: New Year's Eve, so maybe a little, like, drinking.
Speaker A: Next up is an incident that probably many people, um, have heard of or recall in the news. On July 16, 1999, john F. Kennedy, Jr. And his wife, Carolyn Bassett Kennedy died when the plane that he, the JFK Jr. Was piloting, crashed into the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts. The crash was attributed to pilot error and spatial disorientation. His sister inlaw Lauren Bassett, also died in the crash. Um, and this was seen as an extra tragedy, I think, in terms of media coverage, because they were definitely an it couple. I'm sure many people compare their glamour and their charm to that of JFK Juniors iconic parents. So very sad. August 25, 2009, at age 77, senator Ted Kennedy passed away after receiving treatment for a malignant glioma.
Speaker B: Thanks.
Speaker A: Gray's Anatomy, a type of cancerous brain. Tumor. Um, just sad. Like, his son had cancer when he was twelve. He had cancer later in his life. I will say not many Kennedy make it to age 77.
Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, you're lucky, man. He's the one with the weird look, right?
Speaker A: Yeah. But it's still like, it's like tragedy has been chasing him his whole life, and it finally caught up almost. September 16, 2011, Kara Kennedy, daughter of Ted Kennedy, died of a heart attack while exercising in a Washington, DC health club. She reportedly suffered from lung cancer nine years earlier, but she had recovered after the removal of part of her right lung. So, again, this is the third member in just this specific branch of the family that's faced with cancer, but then it's like she dodged the cancer bullet and then she has a heart attack.
Speaker B: So much tragedy.
Speaker A: All right, so, may 2012, Mary Richardson Kennedy, who was the former wife of Robert F. Kennedy, Junior, died by suicide on the grounds of her home in Bedford, westchester County, New York. Uh, so at this point, it's like relatives, people who are technically not blood related to the Kennedys, but, uh, they married in everybody. August 2019. Sercia Kennedy Hill, the granddaughter of Robert F. Kennedy. She dies of an accidental drug overdose at the Kennedy compound in Cape Cod. And then as recently as last year, on April 2, 2020, may Kennedy McKeen and Gideon McKeen, uh, her eight year old son went missing during a canoe trip in the Chesapeake Bay. She's the granddaughter of Robert Kennedy and the grand niece of President JFK. Maeve's body was found on April 6. Gideon's body was found on April 8. Authorities believe Maeve paddled to retrieve a ball leading the wind and the current to overturn the canoe. So that's kind of the end of the list of the Wikipedia list of tragedy. Everybody wear a life vest.
Speaker B: Seriously. Especially if you're an eight year old, right?
Speaker A: It just reminded me of what happened with Naya Rivera last year.
Speaker B: That was so sad.
Speaker A: We're a life best, you guys. It doesn't your Instagram pictures will still look good. Here's a little what I thought was a fun fact. Um, uh, there was a member of the Kennedy family in political office, um, continuously from 19, um, 46, when John F. Kennedy was elected to the US. House of Representatives until early 2011, when Patrick J. Kennedy left the House of Representatives. The only exception in that time was the period where JFK resigned from the senate in December 1960, and then was inaugurated as the president in January of the following year. And then in 2013, Joseph P. Kennedy, the third was elected. US. Representative from Massachusetts, and he served until this year.
Speaker B: Yeah, remember that, too.
Speaker A: Kennedy, they're everywhere in politics.
Speaker B: They married the Schwarzeneggers too.
Speaker A: Yeah, they're everywhere.
Speaker B: They're everywhere.
Speaker A: So this brings me, um, to the final question. What is the source of this socalled Kennedy curse. I thought this was very funny because people in the YouTube comments seem to have, uh, it all figured out.
Speaker B: Of course, they always do.
Speaker A: One person commented, my grandfather told me how the Kennedy curse started. It was because many years ago, their great grandfather sold weapons to the enemy. Didn't specify which enemy, what year it was, no idea. And then somebody responded, and just the level of confidence, but no follow up of new knowledge just really tickles me in this response. Several people have sold weapons to the enemy. Why pick on this Kennedy great grandfather? Selling weapons to the enemy cannot be the cause of a generational curse.
Speaker B: I mean, there's a portion of that where I agree, and then there's so much of it where I go, okay.
Speaker A: I just want to be like, what's your source? Is your grandmother a witch? Are you a witch? Do you have a manual on generational curses? What's the situation?
Speaker B: Where is your curse book? I need to know what portion of the index should I be looking at?
Speaker A: Right. G for generational or W for weapons? I don't know.
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: Edward Klein, who is the author of The Kennedy Why tragedy has haunted America's first family for 150 years. He relayed a rumor in this book. He shared a rumor that was told to him by Jewish mystics oh, golly. That a rabbi had. Hexed family patriarch Joseph Kennedy in the 1930s damning him and all his male offspring to tragic fates because the two men got into a dispute on a boat.
Speaker B: Okay, but this just feeds into the antisemitism of it all.
Speaker A: But also, it doesn't cover all of the tragedies.
Speaker B: Let's talk about Rosemary women. What about kick? What about all of the no, wrong.
Speaker A: Incorrect.
Speaker B: I don't agree.
Speaker A: Well, so? Neither does Kline. He shared that in his book as, like, some people say this. He himself believes that the Kennedys were cursed by a fatal, quote, thrillseeking gene.
Speaker B: This is what my father in law.
Speaker A: Believes embedded in their DNA. Uh, yeah, my article did not offer any additional information on that. I don't know how you would even determine that scientifically.
Speaker B: I think it's a level of testosterone, because that's like, the hormone that makes you take risks. But it wouldn't explain the tragedy, um, of kick. It wouldn't explain poor Rosemary. It wouldn't explain, like, the fact that Ted was still alive at 77.
Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, last time I checked, sitting in a car, an open air car, is not a risk, uh, taking activity.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Maybe becoming president in itself is inherently.
Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's where that comes from. But when I asked my father in law what his favorite conspiracy theory was, it was that there was a thrill seeking gene in the Kennedys, and that's why they were cursed.
Speaker A: So the most complete legend or origin story that I could find for the Kennedy curse comes from a publication titled Ireland's big issue.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: And so, according to legend, thomas quote or nicknamed honey Fitz Fitzgerald. Honey Fitz, who was JFK's great grandfather on his mother Rose's side, interfered with a cursed treasure trove in the 1840s and used the proceeds to set himself up in business in America. So according to this, it's actually Rose, the woman that you don't like. It's her family's fault. It's her gene. Maybe that's why she decursive.
Speaker B: But, I mean, it also explains why nothing happened before their family.
Speaker A: True.
Speaker B: So maybe it was just because something happened in hers, and then she became bitter and passed it on, perhaps.
Speaker A: So the legend goes that it's 1842 in a place called Urid in County Galway, Ireland. I tried to look up how to pronounce it. Guys, YouTube was not helpful, but apparently urid urid. However, it said it's iris.
Speaker B: It's fine.
Speaker A: It means golden village, and it's very remote. It was, in fact, the last place in Ireland to become electrified. The first light bulb arrived there in 19. So idyllic old school removed.
Speaker B: Smells like sheep, probably.
Speaker A: So at this time, the early 1940s, there are a lot of starving people. They've been turned out of their homes in some, uh, cases. I wrote the bad times. So the protagonist of our story, honey.
Speaker B: Fitzgerald, I can't who named him that? Who did that to him?
Speaker A: Well, you'll find out. He gains this nickname because of the following. Okay, so he was from Locker in county Limerick, and apparently he had dreamed of a village of gold nestled amidst the lakes and the mountains. An Irish eldorado, essentially. Yes. And he spent years traveling, trying to find this place that he had seen in his dreams, which, I mean, if the economy is going to dirt and there is no work to be had, might as well yeah, why not? That works as a retirement plan as well as sitting next to the fire and being sad.
Speaker B: It gives you something to do, something productive with your life. Yeah, go for it. What? Why are you looking so wistful?
Speaker A: No, there are a bunch of sirens. Can you hear them? Okay, good. So while he was traveling, he would talk up locals at the various fairs and gatherings to try and kind of get a read on information if anyone knew anything. One day at a fair in Galway city, and O'Malley man is how they were described, and I meant to look it up because it wasn't like George O'Malley. It was an O'Malley man. And maybe just a man of perhaps, but he is from the urred area. Um, and he seemed to know what Fitz was talking about, but he didn't know specifically where the treasure was buried, or if he did, he wasn't going to tell this random guy. So Fitzgerald moves to this area to continue his quest. He's not just searching for treasure, though. He's like working with sheep for one of the longest.
Speaker B: It smells like sheep, truly.
Speaker A: And then I'm just going to read this portion of the story from the article because they did it so well. And you know what? This is not an academic paper.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: So me copying and pasting is not that bad. I'm citing my source.
Speaker B: It's acceptable.
Speaker A: Thank you.
Speaker B: You're welcome.
Speaker A: So this is still from Ireland's big issue. It's available in the show notes. William McGuire takes up the story. They came upon an old traveling woman on the road and she was dying, so they put her down by the fire for the night in a herdsman house owned by the family landlords, a house which Fits subsequently bought when he became rich. When the woman recovered the next morning and awoke, she examined the big black pot hanging in the hearth. It had Ukraine writing on it and she could read it and it said, the other side of the tree is just as good to the people of the household. It was a cryptic message about the message of urid's croc of gold, but not to Thomas Fitzgerald. He knew all about the ancient pot hanging in the fireside hearth and more importantly, where it came from. Fitzgerald had found a similar pot already. It was a big black pot for cooking in. So that is how he knew where to dig. The treasure was buried under an old hawthorne tree. Fitzgerald dug around the tree and found a hoard of gold coins and shared them with the O'Malleys. And it was from the gold that he got the nickname honey Fitz. However, the gold coins were supposed to be very unlucky and people were afraid to touch them. However, some did. It was said afterwards that there was terrible bad luck for any family that took the gold. They had terrible misfortune afterwards.
Speaker B: This is one of my favorite stories currently now, because it's just so Irish. It's so Irish. It's about luck and gold and cryptically, messy ladies. It's kind of mystical, but not and it's all his fault, even though he was just following the clues.
Speaker A: But it's bad luck.
Speaker B: But it's bad luck.
Speaker A: The origin of the gold itself was said to be that it had washed ashore from part of the Spanish armada. So maybe it had bad juju, had like war time, money, I don't know. Like I said, Ireland's big issue is the only source that could offer me any sort of definitive not definitive, but more flesh out comprehensive. Everybody's wanting to talk about the Kennedy curse, but they are just doing what I just did, which is tell you all the terrible things that have happened. I'm like, okay, but where did this curse come from? Because curse to me implies that it has been placed upon you. Yes, but maybe people just say Kennedy curse as in a way to sum up all of the bad things that have happened. I will point out that as Irish Roman Catholics, basically all of the earlier generations of this family had many, many children, which makes the breadth of the family even larger. And I think the more people, the more likely there are to be accidents.
Speaker B: Yeah. The probability is higher.
Speaker A: Also, if you're rich and famous, more people are paying attention and they're more willing to spend time connecting the dots or making a podcast about it.
Speaker B: Hello?
Speaker A: You know what I mean? One of the articles mentioned Mary Jo Capecny, the woman who died after the Chap Aquatic car crash with Ted Kennedy. Her family had a lot of other bad things happen besides her untimely death, but because you know what? No one's ever going to talk about a Capekne curse because they aren't interesting to the general public. So I feel like that's kind of my summation of the curse. Like, maybe it's not a cast upon, it's just a catch all phrase to culturally acknowledge all of the bad juju that's happened.
Speaker B: I think that's fair. I think, too, we could go through just those nine children of Rose and Joe and just be like, this is the Kennedy encapsulated in them and, um, their descendants. But even then, first of all, nine kids, robert had eleven. Even just from their disseminating further down, it's an incredible amount of people. So the probability is just super high. Regardless, I also think because, and I can say this because I'm Irish, when you're Irish, um, everything bad that happens to you is just bad luck and something's cursed and something's wrong. Like, it's never just things happen. It's always like you've been struck, like, kind of what that? Which is horrible to think about. Kind of what Rose said about Kick's death.
Speaker A: If they believed that, maybe you'd think that they would have taken a step back and then like, oh, maybe God's pointing a finger that we shouldn't be in politics.
Speaker B: No. Because that would mean that they wouldn't be able to do what they wanted.
Speaker A: Truly. Yeah. In 2009, Ted Kennedy Jr. And Representative um Patrick Kennedy appeared on Larry King Live on CNN to discuss the passing of their father, Senator Ted Kennedy. King asked them if they believed in the concept of a Kennedy curse. Patrick Kennedy said, no. Obviously, my dad had a sense of spirituality that transcended his ability to face these problems in a way that would have otherwise paralyzed the normal person. And then Ted Kennedy, Jr. Added, the Kennedy family has had to endure these things in a very open way, but our family is just like every other family in America in many ways. So I think Patrick is kind of saying, like, there was so much that my dad and maybe other relatives in the family needed to be able to say, oh, it was this curse, because otherwise they would have to process it as their reality in a more concrete way, and that would just be too critical.
Speaker B: I feel like that's a good summation of that, too. Obviously, these men are also politicians and good speakers and all that. But that is a very clear summation of exactly what I think is true about the Kennedys.
Speaker A: So that's all I have.
Speaker B: Very well done.
Speaker A: A very summed up version of the Kennedy curse. There are countless books and movies and documentaries, um, and things. So if, uh, you have an interest, I'm sure you can find a way to learn more. Check out our show notes.
Speaker B: Yes. And there may be a few episodes now on some deep dives into a couple of these, because now I'm super interested.
Speaker A: Honestly.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I will say this is a completely other side note. You said deep dive, and it made me think of Chap Aquatic.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I had the thought last night while finalizing my research. Massachusetts, who hurt you? Why do you have so many letters in all of your words? Is it because you're so small? Did you feel slighted as a colony?
Speaker B: Well, it's like Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Connecticut were states with a very high Native American population before they all got, uh, pushed out. So they kept the names for if you see any Rhode Island name like Patukat or anything like that, it's all Narraganset Indian or Mohawk or anything like that. Native American names, uh, kind of stuck, mostly because they didn't feel like changing it. But it's a lot of letters. But it's basically just anglicizing native words.
Speaker A: I'll give them a pass then. Yeah, but I was like, they don't.
Speaker B: Get a pass on Worcester.
Speaker A: When I first saw Chap Aquatic, I was like, Excuse me.
Speaker B: Uh, yeah. God bless you.
Speaker A: And then I watched a video and I was like, oh, okay. For once, it actually is kind of.
Speaker B: Pronounced the way it's yeah, they don't get a pass on Worcester. Uh, mostly because that's an English name. That's an English word. Um, uh, all of the Native American words are pronounced with every single letter. There's not a letter missing. Whereas all of the English words are like, well, I know. Hope you know how to say this. Good luck.
Speaker A: I feel like it's just them, like, setting up safeguards against outsiders. It is, because, uh, then you feel like, oh, you're a tourist.
Speaker B: See, but that's what the Irish did when the English colonized. So Owen, the original Irish Celtic language, when they anglicized it and tried to write things out. That's why there's so many vowels in, um, Irish words. Because the Irish were like, yeah, we're going to take your anglicized, like your Latin letters. Perfect, fine. Yeah, we'll do that. But we're going to mess with them.
Speaker A: Uh, and they said a resounding fuck you.
Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, we're going to name our kids Shavon and Neve and Owen. But it's going to have a G in it.
Speaker A: Good luck, elementary school teachers of the future.
Speaker B: Very well done. I'm very proud of you.
Speaker A: Thank you.
Speaker B: This is awesome.
Speaker A: Everyone, thank you for joining us go rate review and subscribe for my birthday. And then, uh, go enjoy the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Yes, and remember, this podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker B: I think I did good. I think I did good.
Speaker A: I mean, you didn't shout at us this time.
Speaker B: I know. OK. Love you. Bye.

Ep. 23: Pale and Frail: The Kennedy Curse

Join us this week from another one of Emma's family closets as Shannon regales us with the story of Camelot. Well, the Kennedy Camelot, all its twists and turns and the curse that hangs over them all. Is it really a curse, a testosterone-fueled urge to take risks, or just a whole lot of bad luck from a whole lot of gold coins? Come find out!

Speaker A: Mhm. Hello. Hey, and welcome to this podcast Doesn't Exist, live from my mother's closet. Who are you? Oh, I'm Emma. Why do I always forget to introduce myself?
Speaker B: And I'm Shannon. I'm the glue holding this together, obviously. Oh, um, my gosh stickler for protocol and procedure.
Speaker A: Yes. No, I know I'm not good at keeping up with that, but I will do my very best. Sorry. I got distracted by a, uh, cashmere sweater in my mother's closet.
Speaker B: Focus, fox. Emma. Focus.
Speaker A: Beautiful. And I really like it. Anyway, yes, I'm in my mother's closet for sound quality. No particular other reason. Keeps all of the animals out. Although one of them snuck in here earlier and scared the crap out of me. She scared me so bad. It was my mom's cat, Little. She just decided that now is the time that I am going to go and, uh, scare the crap out of Emma. Sounds like a fun time. I didn't hear the door open because she's tiny, so she could slip through the crack. And I'm just sitting here facing the wall, and she appears next to me and scared me so badly, I looked over and went, Whoa. And she looked up and went, Ow.
Speaker B: I paid her extra.
Speaker A: You must have.
Speaker B: I ventmode her.
Speaker A: Well, it was good preparation for, uh, this topic.
Speaker B: Um, I'm already not happy.
Speaker A: I know. And I'm so sorry you're going to hate me, but I'm really excited about it. It's been a couple of episodes since we had our spooky. Spooky? Robert the doll.
Speaker B: It's been, like, one episode that you've done?
Speaker A: No, I've done two. I did mothman and I did, uh, tom shoot. So been a couple of episodes.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: And we've got another doll. Shannon is so mad.
Speaker B: Am I not a good friend to you?
Speaker A: I'm so sorry. I just got so interested. Are you already crying?
Speaker B: I'm priming the system.
Speaker A: I'm so sorry.
Speaker B: You say that, and then you continue to do these things.
Speaker A: Do you want me to stop?
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Are you ready? I would really like if you would strap into whatever you feel the safest.
Speaker B: Hold on. Let me go get an emotional support pillow.
Speaker A: Uh oh. That's fair. You do need something to hold on to because we are zooming this episode. Uh, we are not in our normal little positions on our futon couch, so we don't have the ability to cuddle underneath our blankets and hold our pillows and pull our sweatshirts over our heads whenever we get freaked out. So poor Shannon, sitting in her dust chair, clutching a pillow, trying not to cry. And I haven't even started. You don't even know which doll this is.
Speaker B: Oh, I'm not crying right now. In this moment. I did the second, but now I'm just angry.
Speaker A: I know. I'm so sorry. You're going to hate me. I love you.
Speaker B: You better be glad it's afternoon that we're not recording 900 at night.
Speaker A: Yes, I will try my very best never to do that to you again. Because that was very mean.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I'm so sorry. I know we have another doll.
Speaker B: Well, before we get into it, Emma, I'll say while it's not on the bingo card I'm so sorry. Should be. And you can download the bingo card from the link in our Instagram bio at this podcast doesn't exist. Play along. It's a fun time. Um, I think me crying might be one of the bingo squares. So, uh, stay tuned for that.
Speaker A: It's going to be in Plethora in this episode.
Speaker B: If you get bingo, take a screenshot and tag us. We'd love to see it. Alright, Emma, tell um, me what horrors await us.
Speaker A: All right, well, this one is going to get it's going to make you really upset real quick. So I'm just going to barrel through it as much as I can. You're not going to get an hour and a half episode like you did last week, um, because this research is not as National Geographic extensive as Shannon's was, which, um, is a great episode. If you haven't listened to that, please go back and listen. If you feel like, um, getting spooked out in the middle of the night, listen to mine. So we're going to talk about Annabelle, the doll already. Shannon's. Done. So did someone pull a prank that got out of hand? Was it wishful thinking that the supernatural had been contacted? Or is this doll really possessed by a demon?
Speaker B: These microphones make me feel like a newscaster.
Speaker A: Yeah, because you have to, like, get in.
Speaker B: Begging news.
Speaker A: Yeah, you'd be very good at that. That was really good.
Speaker B: Thanks.
Speaker A: So, um, this doll, she's about 4ft tall. So a bit like Robert in the sense that she's like the size of a toddler. But she's also a Raggedy Anne doll. So like the red yarn hair and like the triangular, like, scarecrow nose and features black button eyes, very, um, flat. So, um, it's not unusual that she's this large. That's usually the size of regular raggedy and all. Um, so that's what she looks like. You can all picture, um, her that way. So, um, let's talk about her beginnings. So the majority of the story that I'm about to tell you is coming from a book called The Demonologist the Extraordinary Career of Ed and Lorraine Warren by Gerald Brittle. This, um, book is labeled in two different places as either nonfiction and biography or fiction, which are two very different things. But they are, um, reprints of the same book just in different years. So I don't know what happened. I don't know what that's about. But I also tried to substantiate some of the storyline with other instances of the story being told elsewhere from the, um, Warren's son in law who worked really closely with them. The website that a lot of this stuff is on try to substantiate a lot of this stuff. So there were a couple of names that were different in the book that they are in real life. And so I'm taking this story with a grain of salt because it seems that this author tried to do a biography but added his own flair. So we're going to take this with the greatest thought like we do with most of the conspiracy theories, haunted stuff that we do on this podcast. Believe at your own risk. So put that on the merch. Yeah. So in 1970, for either her 25th or her 28th birthday those were conflicting. To a girl named Donna, who was a student nurse in Connecticut, was gifted this Raggedy Ann doll from her mother from her birthday. Like, people could have their likes and all and you could be interested in certain stuff. I'm not going to say like, that's so weird, but if my mother gave me a four foot Raggedy Ann doll for my 28th birthday now I would not know what to do. I would not know what to do. I'd be like, mom, are you okay? Do you need to talk about something? Because you no, no.
Speaker B: I know you like shopping, Kim, but what's happening?
Speaker A: Exactly? What are you doing? Okay, this 28 year old now has this giant Raggedy Ann doll in her house. Uh, alright. Donna loved this doll. She thought it was awesome. She claimed her mother probably gave it to her as a decoration for her room because she was a student nurse. And so she like, didn't have all that much in her apartment with her roommate, so she was like her mom gave it to her as a decoration. I don't know how it's all as a decoration, but okay.
Speaker B: Do you live in a cracker barrel, right?
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker B: Or do you own a bed and breakfast? Uh, that's very like a cracker bear.
Speaker A: A bed and breakfast filled with dolls.
Speaker B: You were staring in a space and I was like, what is in your closet right now?
Speaker A: That was creepy.
Speaker B: I did not like that at all.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: I'm so sorry. I was just thinking about a bed and breakfast filled with dolls. One would be the Raggedy Anns and one would be filled with porcelain, all that kind of crap.
Speaker B: I'm talking, uh, making jokes and you'll look like this.
Speaker A: I look like the cat.
Speaker B: Terrifying. Yes. Oh my goodness.
Speaker A: Um, I'm so sorry. I'll try, um, not to do that. That's just me thinking. I'm so sorry. Anyway, Donna would leave this doll on her bed after she would make it when she left the house. So she'd just leave the doll sitting on her bed. Very quickly after receiving this doll, donna, um, and her roommate Angie would find the doll in a different position than what it had been left in. Like within a week of this doll being in their house. So Donna reported that she would find a doll on the bed sitting with its legs or its arms crossed or laying on its side when she distinctly remembered leaving it sitting upright against her pillows, uh, arms at its side and legs outstretched, like you would a normal like, if you had a doll on your bed when you were a kid, you just sit it there. You don't, like, maneuver it or manipulate it. And she would come back, and the little arms would be crossed, or the little legs would be crossed, or it would be, like, in a fetal position. Terrifying.
Speaker B: Not like it had just, like, flopped over.
Speaker A: No, like it was, like, curled up. Yeah. At one point, Donna decided, I'm going to cross its arms and legs before I leave the house and see what happens. And she came back with the limbs all at the sides. So arms down, legs out. So obviously something's moving. Creepy. Angie reported that one day, the two women came home to find the doll at the front door kneeling, which is worse than anything I could have imagined. This doll is kneeling at the front door. So, like, with its feet underneath it leaning back on its feet. Right. Terrifying. They obviously hadn't left it there when they went out, so they were super spooked. And when they tried to put the doll into that position, it couldn't stay up because it was too top heavy, and it has no structure on the inside because it's just a rag doll, so it won't stay in that position. So they didn't understand how it even got into that posture in the first place. Like, how was it possible for it to sit like that in order for us to see it and pick it up and move it? At this point, this is within, like, two weeks of having this doll in this house. At this point, I would have been like, mom, what the hell did you give me? I am throwing this away, or I'm burning it. Although be careful. Friends. Friends and family, fans, people we don't know, people that hate us. I don't care who you are. Don't burn things that you think are haunted. Please don't.
Speaker B: Oh, no.
Speaker A: Please, no. Because the possibility, if you really believe in that, the possibility of releasing something rather than destroying it is higher.
Speaker B: Uh, so in my mind, I'm like, fire destroys things, purifies things. But I guess it, like, opens the door to hell or whatever.
Speaker A: It can release stuff. So if something is attached to something, if you burn it, the attachment is destroyed.
Speaker B: Rather than put it in a box, um, with some salt and bury it.
Speaker A: Yes. Like the dynamic box.
Speaker B: Like Robert right on the box. Do not open it.
Speaker A: Haunted doll. I'm so sorry. All right. So soon, the roommates started to find notes around the house. These notes were written on parchment paper in what they call the kids scribble and would be found on the floor around the apartment. They would say, help me. Help us or help Lou. Lou was a friend of the roommates, so they initially thought that it was him pranking them because he was, like, a really good friend of theirs. He had a key to their apartment because he would take care of the house if they were out. Or they thought that he was pranking them and moving stuff around. And they were like, oh, that must be the explanation as to why it's still creepy. Please stop. But that must be it. So both Angie and Donna adamantly claimed that they had no parchment paper in the house and had no clue where it could have come up come from. So when I think parchment paper, I think with my book stuff, it's, like, really thick kind of paper. A little bit more, um, on the cream colored side, like, not as floppy as regular paper. It's a little bit resume paper.
Speaker B: Like fancier?
Speaker A: Yeah, a little bit more like that, but even so, like, even thicker than that, almost. But I'm also thinking, um, of, like, the parchment paper that you use for baking. So I'm not sure which of those it was. In any case, those were my two thoughts. I couldn't get any kind of clarification on that. And the notes don't exist anymore, I guess. Although, honestly, if it were me, I would have been, like, crumple up trash. Forget it ever happened. The roommate's first inclination was that someone was coming in lou someone else they knew playing a prank on them. They decided to set up little traps to try and catch whoever was coming in. So they would, like, mark the windows to put down either, uh, something that you would get on your person if you, like, went through a window and out again, or, like, came through a doorway and out again. Like, you would mess with it or end up with it on you kind of thing. Or they would move rug, um, so that would make it evident that someone had been through to Donna's room to mess with the dog or walk around the house. So they'd, like, bunch up a rug in the corner of the rug or the edge of the rug so that if you stepped on it, it would flatten, that kind of thing. But no matter what tactics they tried, the traps were always undisturbed and the doll was still moving, so they were freaked out. The worst incident to them was when they came home one night and found the doll on Donna's bed with a red substance on the back of its hand and three drops on its chest. And they had no clue what to make of it. And remember, these are student nurses, so the possibility of them having blood on them is not necessarily high, but it's probable.
Speaker B: But they don't wear their scrub.
Speaker A: Exactly. That was my next thought. Because if someone posited, they were like, well, they're student nurses. Like, blood isn't unusual, but they don't have it in their house. Scared, the women made an appointment with a medium about a month after the doll appeared. Um, which is hella quick. It's within a month that all of this stuff is happening. That is a lot of paranormal activity happening. And it happened almost immediately upon the doll arriving at the house. So that's a lot. So the medium claimed that she was channeling the spirit of a seven year old girl named Annabelle Higgins, who had become interested in the doll. The girl had died on the property long ago, saying that she used to play in the fields the apartment building now stood on, and she felt she couldn't relate to anybody since they were all adults. But she really loved the doll. That's why she had started moving it, because she was trying to communicate with the women that she really liked the doll. She wanted to stay with it, like, she wanted to stay with the doll. So Annabelle asked Angie and Donna if she could move into the doll so that she could stay with them and feel as loved as she felt the doll did. Mhm. Now, when a spirit asks you something like that and you give it permission, that's your own damn fault. Don't give anything like that any kind of permission. You're just not like I understand it in the concept of, like, this is a little girl spirit. Like, we're nurses, we have compassion. Like, we want we want her to feel safe and happy and loved and all of that. No.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: Okay, I'm going to take that clip of you saying all that and play it back to you. If you ever find a box that says, Ponded Doll, do not open. And you're like, But I want to open it, I'll just be like, Roll the tape, Mark. Roll the tape.
Speaker A: Oh, poor Mark. He's got to deal with so much stuff. Anyway. All right, let's move on, because I did write this in here because I wanted to ask you, if this were us, what would have happened? Would you have even gone to the medium with me? If I were like, this is what I feel like needs to happen, would you even come? Or would you be like, no, I'm moving out, and we are not friends until you get rid of it?
Speaker B: No, I probably would go to the medium because I'm fairly skeptical of mediums, so I feel like I'd want to be there to be like unless she was playing you.
Speaker A: Yeah, I'm really gullible also, it would.
Speaker B: Be good content for the podcast. So we signed this medium release or this medium release. Medium release.
Speaker A: Wow.
Speaker B: I didn't even mean to make that pun.
Speaker A: That was good, though. That's really good. Uh, all right. So Donna and Angie agreed during the seance to let Annabelle inhabit the doll because they dumped Dumb. From then on, they called the doll, Annabelle, so they're encouraging this great fun. Glad for glad for that. Good job, guys. They felt it was no longer the doll, but the little girl that they were engaging with. Mhm as nurses, they felt kind of compassion. They didn't really know what to do with the doll now, though, since it wasn't just really a doll in their eyes anymore. It was a vessel for this little spirit that wanted companionship, so it claimed. So they were just gonna go about living their lives with Annabelle in the house. At first it was fine, but then one day, a boot shaped chocolate appeared on a shelf, which I was thinking about, that it was only described as a bootshaped chocolate. So I was like, this is a 3D thing. But then I remembered in the Whitman Samplers, there's always like, that one that is a rectangle. It's like a postage stamp almost, that's at the top. It's like only milk chocolate or whatever. And there's Christmas ones that they have that are just little, like, stockings. So maybe it was like a boot shape or something like that, I don't know.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Anyway, another day, a statue flew from where it sat, flipped in the air, and then crashed to the ground when the women were sitting on the opposite side of the room. But the moment that they knew that it was a bit more than they could handle was when Lou came over. So now Lou came over often. He was a friend. He had initially taken much stock in the women's stories about the doll. At first, he figured it was either a prank they were pulling on him, like they initially thought that he was pulling a prank on them, but obviously he wasn't. Or that they were just overworked nursing students who kept forgetting where the doll was when they left. Like, you guys don't remember, you're too tired, like you're working really hard. But very quickly, he got a bad vibe from the doll and said that he didn't like her and she didn't like him. Good, I'm glad you feel that. But how, um about we stay away from it? No. So what happened to Lou was really the last straw for the roommates. It was either that Lou had come over and taken a nap on the couch, or that he was in his own bed at home, sleeping. But either way, he had a dream. He said it didn't feel like a dream, though. He watched himself wake up, look around the room and then down at his feet and saw the doll sitting there. He watched helplessly as the doll slowly made its way up his body, stopping at his chest, stretched out his hands on both sides of his neck and pressed. And Lou described that pushing against the doll is like pushing against the wall. It was completely immovable. And he was watching himself being strangled to death and couldn't do anything about it. Sorry, I got through that as quickly as I possibly could. Shannon is screaming into a pillow. Um.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Uh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker B: You better be glad this isn't a drinking game because all of our listeners would be passed out every time you.
Speaker A: Say I mean.
Speaker B: Live.
Speaker A: Um, they can make a drinking game out of it if they feel like.
Speaker B: Well, if you're having a real rough week, friends, happy Friday.
Speaker A: Happy Friday. So the other instance was an actual physical attack that he described happening in the girl's apartment. It's okay, was it ten or eleven at night? And it was only he and Angie in the apartment looking over maps in the living room because they were going on a trip the next day. And it's the paper. Maps are still a thing because it took me a minute and I was like, why are they looking at maps? I am such a millennial. Like, MapQuest was the closest I got to a real map. I was in the car with Mark's grandmother. We're in England and she's driving and she's a wonderful person, but she's a good driver. But when you are on what feels like the opposite side of the car than what you're used to and you don't know what's happening and a giant bus is coming down this tiny road and you get pushed into the reads in this car, it was terrifying. But she was trying to get me to read this map and be like, so how far do you think we are from this place? And I was like, I don't even know where we are on the map. And she goes, oh, we're like, Right. Not even looking. She was like, we're here. I was like, my God, I feel so stupid.
Speaker B: We would have to brush up on our map skills if we ever were to go on The Amazing Race.
Speaker A: Yes, we would. There's no way I would be helpful in that situation. Absolutely no way.
Speaker B: Alright, so you have to learn to drive stick and all learn how to read a map.
Speaker A: Perfect. I already kind of know how to drive stick, so that'll be fine.
Speaker B: Great.
Speaker A: Perfect. All right. So this evening that they're looking over these maps is really quiet, but it was suddenly broken with crashing sounds coming from Donna's bedroom. They both said it sounded like someone had broken into the apartment from Donna's window, so they're expecting an intruder. Liu got up to investigate, stopping at the closed bedroom door because he doesn't have a weapon or anything. So he's like, I'm not going to just barge in and the unsuspecting victim of this person who's come to steal stuff from our house or from this house because it's not his. But he stopped at the closed bedroom door and he waited until, um, the sound from inside ceased and then carefully opened the door and switched on the light. He saw the Annabelle doll tossed to the floor in the corner of the room, just laying there and nothing else had been disturbed. There was no one in the room that he saw. So he walked over to get a closer look at the doll. When he felt the distinct feeling that there was someone behind him, he swung around, expecting an mhm intruder. But instead he saw nothing. He felt a severe pain in his chest and screamed. His screams brought Angie running into the room where she found Lou doubled over and bleeding from his chest. When she pulled down his shirt to see what happened, going into full nurse mode, she saw seven claw marks three vertical, four horizontal. Lou said that they burned, not like he been clawed at, but rather he'd been seared by something. The marks cleared up within 48 hours and were completely gone by the end of the second day, even though they had led proof usually. So after the second incident shannon is not talking.
Speaker B: I don't know what you want me to say.
Speaker A: I know you're just mad. All right, so after the second incident, the roommates, in lieu, decided to call up a local priest that they knew, Father Cook. They told him the whole story and he believed them. Not wanting to speculate on what happened to the three. Father Cook said that he would write to a priest higher up in the church named, uh whoops I messed up names. This initial priest's name was Father Kevin that they contacted and it was Father Cook who Father Kevin contacted. Sorry about that. There's, uh, a lot of fathers in this. You'll see, they called, um, father Cook. He called Father Cook to consult on the matter. And Father Cook, in turn, contacted Ed and Lorraine Warren, who were a well known couple in the paranormal community. Ed was a demonologist and Lorraine was a medium. So the couple, also living in Connecticut, drove in their brand new car to the apartment. Within a week of the incident that he got scratched to conduct their own interview with the three witnesses, um, recording it on tape and taking notes along the way. When Ed had asked towards the end of the interview if they had anything else happen to them in the apartment before Annabelle arrived, they said no, but they were moving out to get away from the spirit. But the spirit was now attached and Ed was convinced that the spirit was not of a little girl at all. He explains it basically like this. The doll was being moved around by a spirit trying to get the women's attention. It spooked them to the point that they took it to a seance. There the spirit convinced them to give it permission to be around them and stay in their home. By pretending to be a little girl, preying on their caring sensibilities. By granting the spirit permission, the women unwillingly allowed or unwittingly willingly but unwittingly allowed a demon to enter their home and do whatever it pleased. The doll was not possessed, but being acted upon by a demon with the ability and desire to possess a human being. Ed claimed that the physical incident that Lou experienced was bound to happen sooner or later, and that they and that had they just let it be, it could have been so much worse. Either someone would be possessed, someone would have been killed. It would have been a really bad situation, because what the demon is hoping for is a moment of weakness where they can possess a, um, human being. Terrifying. So, although the doll was not possessed, the demon was using it as a link to the women and their home, as it had been given permission to do so, which is why I say don't give anything permission. Please and thank you.
Speaker B: Yeah, I know.
Speaker A: Yeah. So Father Cook arrived at the home just as the Warrens were packing up from their interview. Ed, um, and Lorraine, who were Catholics, like, deep Catholics, which I find this interesting, and I might talk about this a little bit more later, but Lorraine was a very devout Catholic at their house. Eventually, later on, there was a priest that had retired from the church, um, but was still a priest. Like, he just didn't have a diocese to be a part of anymore. And he moved on to their property after Ed passed away. And she would have him perform math every single morning. She was completely devout Catholic. I found it so fascinating.
Speaker B: Okay. But there is some stuff. If you read the Bible. Like a literal situation. There is some.
Speaker A: Um. Casting out of spirits in what and that is why I think that it's meaningful that they're Catholics. That they have a very strong belief in God. Because otherwise they wouldn't believe as strongly as they do in devils and demons and angels and all this stuff that they go into for their entire lives. And there was a moment I was watching a couple of videos of Lorraine speaking, because later on in life, she would go to all of these, like, paranormal conferences or stuff like that and talk, because she's fairly, um, famous in that community. And there was a moment where she said, in connection with either this dog or something else that they were doing, that she had an out of body experience, and that she was, like, watching her body from far away. And she said, I hope that everyone has this experience, because it is proof to me that we are bodies with a soul, that we have a soul, that we are not just physical entities that live and decompose. And that's the end of it. Like, that there is something other than just our bodies. So I found it fascinating.
Speaker B: I just love the idea that these Catholic priests have, like.
Speaker A: Edges.
Speaker B: Yes. You're having, uh, a demon problem. Uh, let me call Ed, my number two guy.
Speaker A: Yeah. So. Ed and Lorraine were actually pretty good friends with Father Cook. They knew him pretty well. But Ed and Lorraine were very eager to, um, have this house blessed and cleansed, and they wanted to remove the doll from the house, and Donna wanted this, too. At this point, Donna is no longer like, oh, I love the doll. Thanks, mom. Now she's like, Get rid of this thing, please.
Speaker B: She had, like, a week to love it before it started being weird, right?
Speaker A: Like, so she wanted it out of the house, too. Uh, so Lorraine apparently sensed while they were speaking that the spirit was with them. And she almost immediately upon Father Cook coming into the house. She was like, bless every single room in this house. Like, do an exorcism in every single room in this house. And so he did. And he's an Episcopal priest, too. He's not a Catholic priest, but he is an Episcopal priest. And he had a seven, um, page exorcism script that he had to read in every single room of the house. So it took a little bit, but he finally did it. And when he finished, he blessed everyone in the house as well. So he blessed the warrants. He blessed the three that had been experiencing it just to cleanse everybody. And at that point, Lorraine said, the spirit is settled. Not that it's gone, but it's settled. And when he finished, the Warrens left with Annabelle sitting in their back seat, like, just sitting in the backseat like a little human being. Like, put that thing in the trunk. Put it in the trunk. No, thank you.
Speaker B: I feel like when it comes to spirits, there's, like, a fine line where you kind of want to be respectful so that it doesn't get more mad.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point. That's probably honestly what he was thinking of. Like, if I put this thing in the trunk, or if I put it in a box, or if I try to put it somewhere that isn't, like, where a person would be, things will be worse. I don't know. But Ed had decided not to go on the interstate on their way back home, which turned out to be a really good decision, because their brand new car stalled three separate times, once while taking a very dangerous curve and almost got them into wrecking their car, because whenever a car stalls, the steering and the brakes just stop working. So you're helpless. You're basically not able to do anything. By the time it stalled the third time, ed pulled over, grabbed a vial of holy water out of his bag, and sprinkled some over Annabelle and made the sign of the cross, and the rest of the ride home was blessedly uneventful. That was all he had to do.
Speaker B: Why didn't you get the priest to do that at the.
Speaker A: I don't know. I, uh don't know. I would have done it. I would have been like, hi, can you bless this thing? Like, four times?
Speaker B: Fill the bathtub up with holy water. Just like dunk the dolly.
Speaker A: Dunk it.
Speaker B: Dunkin Dollies, my new metal band.
Speaker A: Oh, that's a good one. I like that. All right. I know I can't. Annabelle's Oddness didn't stop with removing her from the apartment or sprinkling her, uh, with holy water. Annabelle was placed in Ed's office. I don't know why. And for the first few days after her arrival, she levitated every day. Just levitated, just fancy. But eventually she stopped because apparently she wasn't getting enough attention from it. So she tried different tactics. She would appear in other rooms around the house, just like, teleport to other rooms in the house, including when they left the house. And they locked her in the outside office with separate building from their main house. And she would end up in Ed's easy chair in the main house when they came back home. So they'd open the door and there was Annabelle sitting in the easy chair like, yo, what's up? Welcome home.
Speaker B: She's smoking a cigarette. She just like, sit in the armchair.
Speaker A: Right. So, according to the Warrens, annabelle, uh, also came with a quote, friend.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: It'S okay, it's short. A black cat would materialize next to the doll, take a walk around the room inspecting items and books, and then end up back next to the doll and dematerialized from the head down until it was gone.
Speaker B: I don't mind that.
Speaker A: Yeah, see, I knew you wouldn't. I did start. It really creepy. It's not that bad. It only happened a few times, too. It never really became a thing, but it happened a couple of times. Um, Annabelle also really hated men of the cloth. She hated all of the priests and all of the clergymen hated them. Father Cook called the house a few times in a row to ask about the Warren's follow up info on the case. So he called twice. Obviously, their answering machine didn't have enough room for him. The first time we were, uh, cut off or whatever. I don't know how answering machines back then work, other than that they were on tapes. That's about it. Anyway, he called twice back to back and they weren't home. So when they came home, Lorraine opened the door and heard a really deep growling from somewhere in the house. And she couldn't place it. And she saw that there was a message on the phone, so she played the message. And in between the two recordings of Father Cook calling were, uh, deep growls recorded on the actual recording, which is weird because it wouldn't come from outside of the call in. It would had to have been on the other line. So the fact that it was being manipulated in that way is terrifying. So there's that. Another priest, Father Jason Bradford, was a friend of the Warrens and came to speak with Ed when he mentioned the new addition to Ed's office. Like, he was like, what's with the doll? Ed, what's with the doll? She was sitting in her own chair next to this desk. And Ed told the father about the case and actually asked for thoughts about it. Like, you know, do you think, like, an exorcism would be something? Father Bradford was a catholic exorcist. That was mostly his job. He worked closely with all of that kind of stuff, which is why he knew the Warrens really well. So he was actually interested in this case. But he dismissed Annabelle. Um, and he picked her up and told her she couldn't hurt anything. She was just a doll. And Ed was like, you shouldn't have done that. And he was right. Father Bradford put the doll back in her chair, went to go say goodbye to Lorraine. Lorraine warned him to be very careful with his car. And later that day, when he got back to the rectory, he called the warrants and reported that he very nearly died from a freak car accident on his way home because his brake system had failed and his car was completely destroyed. Remember, too, this is still the 70s. These cars are massive, massive pieces of metal. So the fact that he's not dead is incredible. But, yeah, so there's that. And then there was another incident during a gathering at the Warren's house when Father Bradford and Lorraine went to go talk in the den where Annabelle had been moved that day. So she was moved out of the main portion of the house while the gathering was going on. I think Ed was like, I don't really want to talk about her or deal with her. Let's just go put her away. But they went into this room to talk, and the father saw the a wall hanging move somewhere in the room. And then the 24 inch long boarstooth necklace, apparently, that they had hanging on the wall that was right behind them exploded, just shattered into pieces. And it brought the other guests into the room because it was that loud. And one of these guests had the foresight to snap a photo. Could not find this photo, but reportedly in the photo were father Bradford, Lorraine, and Annabelle in the corner. Everything else was normal in the photo, except for the fact that there were two beams of light coming from Annabelle directed right at Father Bradford. So she really hates him. Both a police detective and a carpenter visiting the house on business had been made believers in Annabelle from simply being in the same room as her. And one of Lorraine's favorite sayings, which I find this hilarious, was, I've never met an atheist in a haunted house. Which I really like. I think it's really sweet because it's mhm like, yeah, you automatically are like, something keep me safe. Something saved me in a haunted house. Because you're like, terrified. She's like, yeah, never met an atheist in a haunted house. So funny. Alright. You're doing really well, by the way.
Speaker B: Thanks.
Speaker A: Guys. Shannon is so mad at me. She so mad at me. All right, so eventually, Annabelle became the featured haunted item in the Warren's occult museum. So this museum was founded initially as the New England center for psychic research in Connecticut in years before Annabelle was a thing. But later it became the space for all of the haunted items the Warrens had collected over the, um, years. And this was on their own property in Connecticut. So this wasn't like a separate space, this was on their property. It became a place for fans of the supernatural to frequent, but, um, to keep people safe from what Lorraine called the most evil item in the house, annabelle was placed in a glass case with a sign that read, warning positively do not open. And inscribed on the inside of the case was the lord's prayer. She was really not in. She didn't even like touching Annabelle. She was not into that at all.
Speaker B: A smart lady.
Speaker A: Yeah. She also claimed to have the ability to see auras, um, to be able to see you and know, um, what kind of person you were based on the color of your aura or the way that it felt. And she said that the doll had an aura, as most supernatural touched things do. And that when somebody touches the doll, they're bridging the gap between their auras and then they have the ability to feed from that, which I was like, that's terrifying great. Never touching anything ever again. All right. So the glass case, unfortunately, could not keep Annabelle from hurting people. A young man and his girlfriend arrived at the museum, laughing through the whole place as they went. When they stopped Annabelle's case, the man defied her and told her that if she was real, she would scratch him up like she had scratched up loo. When it didn't happen immediately, he laughed and he and his girlfriend left on his motorcycle. Ed actually had told him that they had to leave after they tried to, like, instigate things with Annabelle. He was like, you need to leave. Because I think in his mind he was like, one, I don't want to be around for what happens, and two, I don't want you to get hurt because you're making things really bad for yourself. Fortunately, that didn't keep him safe. On the way home, he was killed in a horrific accident that left his girlfriend alive but hospitalized for over a year. When asked what happened, she said that they were laughing about the doll when he lost control of his bike and crashed into a tree. So even if you don't believe in it, don't go messing with things you don't know. Please and thank you. So regardless of the fear of Annabelle, people still frequented the property, which was the actual home of Ed and Lorraine. To see the items that they had collected, but mostly to see the doll. She's the most famous item in this museum. Most of the other items I tried to not look into, but I was looking at pictures, trying to see if I recognized anything. Not a thing. Didn't recognize anything except for amber. So this is really the thing that brought a lot of people to their museum. Included in these interested parties was our very favorite ghost hunter, Zack Bigger. Aren't you surprised?
Speaker B: Um, literally not at all. Not a one. I was wondering when he was going to show up. Yeah, I'm surprised he wasn't trying to make Annabelle and Robert get ghost married or something.
Speaker A: Can you imagine?
Speaker B: He plans them a wedding. He makes them have it in Vegas because he has to go to other people.
Speaker A: Actually, down the street from his museum is the Little White Chapel of Las Vegas. So he could definitely have them married in, uh, Las Vegas. Holly that's terrifying to think about. I went to the website, zack Megan's haunted museum website. And dude, I honestly think he believes that he is like the haunted version of the greatest showman. You should see this website. There is a picture of this man in a top hat and his hand outstretched, like, come on by. And I'm like, oh my mhm gosh.
Speaker B: Let me guess. It costs like $57 a ticket or something.
Speaker A: It costs $53. And if you want the VIP All Access, which is called Rip All Access, because why not? It is $76. I have no clue what it, um, entails. I didn't look further into it because I was laughing so hard.
Speaker B: There better be a Tshirt, at least.
Speaker A: I think you do get a t shirt. I think you get like a t shirt and like a special tour or something. I don't remember. But it's like it was just I could not stop. I almost screenshotted it and sent it to you. But then I was like, then she knows I'm doing something haunted or whatever. Although I knew you would end up knowing anyway. But I'll send you the link to the website. It was just so silly. It's just silly. Like nowhere close to spooky or funny. It's just silly. I don't know. Anyway, so Zac Bagans goes to this museum. He goes to the occult museum. And he apparently tried to provoke Annabelle. Because, of course, in front of the curator of the museum, who is also the son in law of the Warrens. His name is Tony Sparrow. He worked really closely, um, with the Warrens. But Tony said it was like it was an act. It was really put on because he was like, I feel like a really close energy to Annabelle. Like, I'm really feeling this and it worries me, but I'm really feeling I kind of want to open this. Annabelle, if you feel my energy too, why don't you scratch me? Please, go ahead. I dear that kind of stuff.
Speaker B: I can't unhear the comparison to Mark Patterson. I can't.
Speaker A: I know I can't. Although Mark Patterson is a hell of a lot more pure than Zach Bacon says in terms of just the way the way that he functions is so funny. Anyway. So Tony Sparrow says, the devils and demons don't work on your command. They're not going to do what you ask them to as soon as you ask them to. They're not trying to prove themselves to you. They don't have to. They act when they want to. So something could happen to you a year from when you provoked them. And you wouldn't attribute it to the time that you told Annabelle to scratch you or anything like that. So also Zach has tried to acquire Annabelle for himself and his own museum. But Tony has adamantly refused any advances on Annabelle. He wants to keep the Warren's collection as intact as possible because neither of them are here now. Ed died in 2006 and Lorraine died in 2019. Uh, but he wants to keep their collection as intact, uh, as possible because neither of them are here to do so. Um, and he really, really does not like Zack. Really does not like Zack. So Zack Baggins, you're never going to get Annabelle the doll. Sorry, man, deal with it. So currently, this occult museum is closed permanently, quote, unquote, but not because of COVID, but rather because of zoning issues. So this is the actual former home of the Warrens, turned into this museum after they're passing. So it's hard to allow people to come and visit the house with just the way that it's set up as a neighborhood. Like, there's no real place for people to go park or anything like that. It's not a place of business in that capacity. Also, people just end up showing up on their own, whether or not they've been invited, um, or whether or not they've bought a ticket to come and see the museum. And they just wander around the property, which is a really big issue for neighbors because, um, they don't know who these people are. And that's just a safety issue on everyone's account. So currently they're looking to see if they can move to another location. So they've closed the museum permanently. All of the stuff is still in the house. Like, um, nothing has moved from the house. They're just looking for a different location to move everything to. But Annabelle might have moved on her own. Just decided to upchuck it. So in August of 2020, because 2020 wasn't bad enough, a tweet started a claim that Annabelle had escaped the museum and was just on the loose. Like that nobody had seen her. She was just out of her box, escaped on the loose.
Speaker B: Time to cancel the state of Connecticut, right?
Speaker A: So the tweet went viral. Like, for two days. It was going crazy until Tony Sparrow, the soninlaw of the warrens, as well as the curator of this museum, took a video of himself in front of Annabelle's box with her inside of it, saying, she's still here. And we have cameras everywhere. So I would know if she had left. He also said if Annabelle had left to go like a loop with her boyfriend or something, I would know. And I was like, who's her boyfriend?
Speaker B: The doll.
Speaker A: Robert Hurt. Oh, that's right. So, of course, an item like Annabelle couldn't stay out of Hollywood forever because it's just built into all of this. Of course, Annabelle is the inspiration for the movie The Conjuring, but also for the Annabelle franchise. There's now three movies called Annabelle whatever. None of these I will say I've never seen the Conjuring, never seen Annabelle. Never gonna can't convince, um, me otherwise. The movie doll and the movie plot are drastically different from the real thing. Like an insane amount. Like, there's a whole Satanic thing with the Annabelle doll in the movies and someone's pregnant and gets it at an antique store. Crazy. I'm not posting this photo on our Instagram because this doll is the creepiest thing. If you want to go and look at, just type in Annabelle the doll. And pictures of this Hollywood doll show up as well as the actual Annabelle. It's so creepy. Like, there's no reason to make it look like that. And yet they did. But, uh, very different from the real Annabelle. The main reason the doll looks so different is actually because of the copyright issues with the Raggedy Ann dolls, which I get. Like, it would be really hard to be like, this is going to be really bad publicity. It already is. But it would be even worse publicity if they were like, this raggedy and doll is haunted. Like, just make another doll. So they did, and they made it look so gimmicky and stupid. But it's also super creepy. So this Hollywood doll, this Hollywood prop doll has appeared in a couple of other movies rather than her own. She's both in Aquaman and in Shazam. And it may become a Hollywood thing to have her cameo in the background of certain movies, which I find hilarious. So she's like, on a shelf in Shazam when the police officers coming to a crime scene and she's on a shelf in a store or whatever. And you can, um, see her very clearly. I have no clue where she is in Aquaman because I haven't seen it. But the fact that she's just like a traveling prop, um, that people keep trying to stick into movies is very funny to me. I kind of hope that they continue doing it just as a gimmick because it would be great. Bizarre, but great. And I love it. So let's end with our theories. Did Ed and Lorraine Warren make this up? Possibility is there. It's not necessarily extremely probable because they have a hell of a lot of other stuff. They were the head investigators, paranormal investigators, not the real investigators of, um, the amino horror house and all of that. That might be one that I end up, uh, doing, so sorry. Um, but lots of murders, but with the possibility of there being demons involved, um, all of that. So that was a really big thing earlier in their career. And then annabelle came along. Um, they're really popular in the paranormal community. I don't see a reason for them to make up any of this, except for maybe it was, like, something to put in this museum or whatever that they were creating. I don't know. Maybe because all of this is from ed and lorraine's own records, so they have their own case files, and they do have recordings of interviews and stuff, but obviously no hard evidence. I don't, uh, know where that photo is of annabelle shooting beams of light at the father. So it's a possibility that ed and lorraine fabricated the, um story and had people help them. But I don't know. Another theory was that annabelle was, um, a joke played by the two roommates. And ed and lorraine fell into it like they were full on believers. And this joke was played on lou, and he freaked out and made them go through all these hoops. But I don't really understand why that would happen either. It seems a bit far fetched. If it were me and I had been pranking somebody, I would have been, uh, like, yeah, so it was me. So sorry, man. I'll never do it again. Perpetuate it once.
Speaker B: You have to like, how does it work? Do you pay a priest to come to an exorcism of your house?
Speaker A: Very good question.
Speaker B: I have an offering in the plate when it goes around.
Speaker A: I have no clue how that works. Never had an exorcism.
Speaker B: That's good.
Speaker A: Yes. I hope it's good. It might be that there is a demon, but low level demon.
Speaker B: Low of a demon. Great. We love that. The first single, um, off, uh, your new album's, closet, live from my mom's closet. My mother's closet.
Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. All right, so, of course, our last theory is that annabelle is possessed or manipulated by a demon or an evil entity and just is having a hell of a time, uh, just destroying people's lives. So my thought, um, is that she's a demon. End of story. What about you? How are you feeling, first of all?
Speaker B: I'm okay.
Speaker A: Good.
Speaker B: I'm so glad, I think, because you don't have as many specific examples.
Speaker A: Yeah, there aren't as many.
Speaker B: The dream really freaks out.
Speaker A: Yeah, I remember from the divock box episode how freaked out that moment made you. And I was like, this is why I need to get through this, because I can't freak her out, because there's other stuff coming that I need to make sure.
Speaker B: Honestly, what's just been going through my head since you first started. Is that one TikTok I sent you?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Of the woman. She's like, at her in law's house and she's like, Raggedy Ann. And it's everything, guys. I'll try and find it and post it on the Instagram.
Speaker A: I almost tried to find it and send it to you in between.
Speaker B: It's like they've got every size. They've got furniture, they've got dishes, they've got clothes that have Raggedy Ann. And then there's a giant raggedy Ann. And of course she's in a basement and she's alone. And then the giant Raggedy Ann doll, like, the head, like, moves. I threw my phone across my bed.
Speaker A: I was so not prepared. I knew something was going to happen. But I was also like, this is very weird. Like, why would you have this much stuff of one thing. What is it? Like, there was this SNL skit of like the moms all have an animal that they claim is like theirs. There's an SNL skit and they have t shirts or button ups that have their animal on them. And there's this new mom and she goes to the school meeting or whatever. And these moms are like, so what's your animal? That's what it makes me think of. Like, what's your thing? What is the one thing that everyone can get you for Christmas? Kind of thing. Whereas, uh, everyone gets me books no matter what.
Speaker B: My cousin Dana collects different editions of Monopoly in uno.
Speaker A: That's adorable.
Speaker B: An acceptable thing to collect.
Speaker A: That's not nice. Yeah. So I really hope that I never have to encounter a Raggedy and all in person. I never had one as a kid. Um, I think my mom did, but I never had one.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: So my dad had a ventilaquist on me, but that was the end of that.
Speaker B: I explained so much.
Speaker A: I know. I need to find that photo that I told you about. Yeah. So that's Annabelle Vidal. Would you like to see her?
Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like I have to. I mean, I'm going to have to when? Um, I post her on the Instagram anyway.
Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm, uh, going to show you the picture of Lorraine taking her out of the house for the first time.
Speaker B: Every time you say her name, all I think of is keysh.
Speaker A: Like quiche. Um, Lorraine?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: You disabled screen sharing.
Speaker B: Oh, I did?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: No. I gave you permission.
Speaker A: Um, I can't screen share. It's just post disabled participants. Okay. Share screen. Oh, golly. I have to go and, like, grant access in my own computer.
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: It really doesn't want me to show you. Annabelle.
Speaker B: No, annabelle is not feeling it.
Speaker A: Obviously not. I can't show you until I would have to close out of Zoom and then, um, log back in. It's okay. I'm not going to text these to you because if I text them to you, then they are on your phone. And I know you don't want that. She's just a regular raggedy end doll.
Speaker B: They're going to end up on my phone when I put them on instagram anyway.
Speaker A: That's true.
Speaker B: That's fine. I saved that as a special surprise.
Speaker A: So sorry. I also have pictures of the paranormalogy, um, research center that they have next to their house. So that's weird. There's a couple of pictures being ad.
Speaker B: In lorraines next to our neighbor. Just imagine for a second, um, that's the SNL sketch I want where you're like jed they're at it again. They're out there in the shed. I don't know what they're doing.
Speaker A: They put up a sign. The sign says paranormal. What's paranormal? Is it the paranormal? Judder demons.
Speaker B: In our characters. That's not what people from connecticut sound like.
Speaker A: No, not at all. Yet for some reason, they all sound like they're from Kentucky.
Speaker B: And I love that. Jed is my go to husband name. I think it's because he's the president on the west wing. And I'm like, he's a respectable man.
Speaker A: Dead bartlett so if you would like to see these photos that I am not able to show shannon currently, but will eventually show her, and she'll freak out before she posts them onto our, um, instagram. You can go to our instagram at this podcast doesn't exist. All the photos will be there. Check into our stories as well to see if shannon and I can find um, that tik tok with all the raggedy and dolls. And you'll be able to watch it too, and be horrified. So there are, uh, a lot of sources too. So check the source notes for this. There's one website that I looked into in particular that is called tonyspara,, which is their son in law. But it's for the new england paranormal society, whatever that they created. Um, and it has uh, like videos of the warrants talking about all of their different cases. It has case files for each of the um, cases, which aren't really case files. They're just little summaries of each of the cases that they do. But it is interesting. It's very interesting to just look through it all. There's also some photos, um, that I'm not putting on the instagram, but they're in the show notes of the museum when it was open. So, um, people were taking photos of the other items in the museum. There's a crap ton, um, of dolls. There's mannequins, there's like mirrors. And it's very creepy. The main reason I think that lorraine and ed wanted to have all this stuff in their house was because they felt that um. Because they were catholics and they were very deep believers in god. That they felt it was safer to have these haunted items in their own home because they felt that they were safe from them and it was keeping other people safe from these items. So I find that interesting. Lorraine is fascinating to me. Hearing her speak. It's very clear to me how genuinely she. Believes in all of this. So the idea that they made this up is not really something I believe. But I say go check out those videos. Go decide for yourself. Also, if you feel like watching something that's a little silly, feel free to check out Mysteries at the Museum because they tell the story with undertones of plinky piano music. Um and I love mysteries at the museum. It's another one of those, like, History Channel, Travel Channel things that is just like, it's not science. It's not facts. It's just fun. So feel free to go look at those.
Speaker B: Put that on the merch. Not science, not facts. Just fun. This podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker A: Not National Treasure.
Speaker B: Oh, man. Now I want to go watch National Treasure.
Speaker A: You can. You have Disney Plus.
Speaker B: It's true.
Speaker A: You have nothing else to do today. That's true. You only had to talk to me today.
Speaker B: That's not true.
Speaker A: Okay, never mind.
Speaker B: Yeah, no, life goes on. Um, but thank you for taking the, uh, time to make me even more hesitant about inanimate objects that attempt to look like people.
Speaker A: You're welcome. And I'm sorry. Uh, and I know that sorry to you doesn't sound genuine, but I need you to know it very much is. And also be very happy that you're not in this house that has a hell of a lot of dolls in it. True. I'm currently looking at two giant Virgin Mary statues in my mother's closet. These are two, uh, of about 50 in this house. Just going to let that sink in for everybody. Mom calls them her Goodwill Ladies, because every time she goes into a Goodwill, she can't leave a Virgin Mary. If there's a Virgin Mary statue anywhere, she has to buy it in her mind. That's just one of her superstitions. So there are a hell of a lot of Virgin Marys in this house. So blessed.
Speaker B: Just, like, line them up outside the house. Like a crop circle of Virgin Mary.
Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B: It's like a protection circle. It's fine.
Speaker A: Crop circle of Virgin Mary's. Oh, my gosh. All right, thank you for listening, everybody. If you have any spooky stories of your own, if you have any collections like The Raggedy and Dolls that were so Freaky. If you know of anything or anyone that does that, I find that fascinating. It's not a hoarding situation. It's more of like a fascination situation for those people. I feel like this sounded really fascination situation, but please send those stories to us and any other story you can think of. Your diner order, your belief in aliens, any kind of paranormal activity you've experienced. Haven't you had an out of body experience or experienced sleep paralysis that you can watch yourself get sprinkled by a doll, let us know. Send us all of these things and more at our Gmail at. This podcast doesn't How many times did I say add about five.
Speaker B: I don't know okay. I was just letting you rock and roll with it.
Speaker A: Thanks, man.
Speaker B: You got your radar.
Speaker A: Thank you for listening.
Speaker B: It's all good.
Speaker A: I do. Thank you so much for listening, Shannon. I'm sorry. I'm very proud of you. Though you didn't necessarily cry. You just screamed into a pillow a couple of times.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I'm really proud of you.
Speaker B: Personal growth.
Speaker A: Yeah, I'm really proud of you. And remember, this podcast doesn't why do I screen it?
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: Alright, bye everybody.
Speaker B: Bye.

Ep. 22: A Crop Circle of Virgin Mary's: Annabelle the Doll

A demon? A ghost? A prank gone wrong? Whatever the reason, this doll is creepy as all get out, so much so that it has to be kept locked away in a glass case like a Marvel villian. Listen as Emma freaks Shannon out with another scary doll mystery, but only cries like once!

Speaker A: Hello.
Speaker B: Hello.
Speaker A: I'm Shannon.
Speaker B: I'm Emma.
Speaker A: And welcome to this podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker B: This is so weird. We're doing this over zoom right now. I am at my parents house. I'm currently in my mother's closet, and it is very weird not sitting on a couch with you right now.
Speaker A: I know. I feel like we both kind of look like Madame Leotta from Mansion, and I just feel like I'm leaning into the microphone. Hopefully this is good. Tell us.
Speaker B: I have a feeling that our audio is a little bit better, but it's only because we each have our own microphone, so we get to hang on to it.
Speaker A: Except not because Emma didn't want to hold her, because, quote, my hands would get tired.
Speaker B: My hands would get tired if I held it up. It's not even just my hand. It would be my arm. My arm would get tired.
Speaker A: You're telling me that this is not even £1 microphone? We don't fitness shame on this podcast. But maybe carry some books around.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: Do, um, you have thoughts about our audio quality? You can reach us on Instagram at this podcast doesn't exist. You can slide into our DMs. You can also play bingo with the card found in our, uh, Lincoln bio.
Speaker B: Please play bingo. Shannon worked very hard on our bingo.
Speaker A: You can't see my face because that's kind of our thing. You're never going to see our faces. I don't know.
Speaker B: We haven't made are you? We haven't made a decision currently. No, you're not. It's just going to be our voices and text on a screen.
Speaker A: Although most of you know us in real life, so you can picture the faces.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. Shannon has a particular face, apparently, that other people like the Shannon face. Um, yeah, there you go. Incredulous. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A: Yeah. All right. Well, Emma, we have a lot to get to today.
Speaker B: I know. Shannon told me she has 19 pages of notes. And guys, that is so many notes.
Speaker A: Caveat. I use size 14 font. There are several photos, and there's at least one page of notes or of sources. What if it was just one page of notes?
Speaker B: One page of 18 pages of photos and sources?
Speaker A: I just actually screen share a, uh, national Geographic documentary for the podcast.
Speaker B: How.
Speaker A: To Get Taken Down Off the Internet.
Speaker B: Yes. All right, who's going to find us?
Speaker A: Big Brother is listening.
Speaker B: Tony's listening.
Speaker A: Yeah, but he's not going to report us. We don't even use his real name.
Speaker B: Tony is not his real name.
Speaker A: Oh, he didn't tell you. Awkward.
Speaker B: My own husband.
Speaker A: All right, well, let me minimize you and minimize the auto.
Speaker B: Stop looking at me.
Speaker A: Well, I still see you over here in the corner, which is nice because I can see you react to things.
Speaker B: This will be fun.
Speaker A: Yeah. So I started this notes document. You know how on the Internet, when you're going to indicate an action. You do the little Asterisks on either side. So for this one, I just put joke about Emma's flight anxiety in the Asterisks and then sorry, Tony.
Speaker B: Dude, this is a plane.
Speaker A: It's plane related. But I don't think it'll rev up your specific anxiety because this is old school planes.
Speaker B: It's still anxietyinducing. I mean, the flight 589 or whatever it was the Sabina flight that freaked me out to no end.
Speaker A: I think there's enough in this episode to make you forget because, Emma, there are so many twists and turns, and I thought about doing like a shopping list at the beginning of this episode to be like, we've got blank, we've got blank. But I also didn't want to give it away.
Speaker B: Right at the top. Is this something that I know?
Speaker A: Oh, yeah. But you may not know how deep it goes. I was telling Emma and shout out to Shelby. Um, I was telling them in our little video chat that I feel like the guy I've been informed it's from Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
Speaker B: Yes, it is, Charlie.
Speaker A: Uh, but the meme with the red string and all of the lines because that's literally how I was feeling. I woke up 45 minutes before my alarm this morning.
Speaker B: I don't know how you stayed up later than me and woke up earlier than me and I barely made my way out of bed.
Speaker A: I'm just very excited.
Speaker B: I'm so glad.
Speaker A: All right, so here we go.
Speaker B: Let's get into it.
Speaker A: We're going to get into it. First, though, I'm going to say shout out to Ruth, who specifically asked about this in our podcast reaction group chat. I hope I do this epic tale justice. Oh, great author. Alright, so today, Emma, um, we are talking about Amelia Earhart.
Speaker B: Damn it. I knew it.
Speaker A: Why do you sound sad or angry?
Speaker B: I am very excited, but when you said that it was it was suggested by Ruth, I was like, oh, no, I think I know what this is because planes are involved. It's Amelia Earhart.
Speaker A: All right.
Speaker B: I'm so excited.
Speaker A: Here we go. I'm going to give you what I've dubbed the Wiki highlights because there's so much about the end part of this story that we can't spend very much time in the early days. But I do want to lay a little bit of a foundation. Many of us have heard of Amelia Earhart. If you haven't heard of her, like, where are you? Maybe you're not American. I don't know. Um, but I'm going to give you kind of a rundown of her resume.
Speaker B: Resume.
Speaker A: So Amelia Mary Earhart was born on July 1897 in Atchison, Kansas. There you go. Uh, all right. In 1918, she and a friend attended the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto and witnessed a flying demonstration by a World War One ace flash pilot who decided to have a little bit of fun and take a dive at these two young women, probably thinking he was going to spook them. I'm sure he didn't get super close, but it's still planes are relatively new in 1918.
Speaker B: Oh my God.
Speaker A: Um, but I loved this quote that she said. I did not understand it at the time, but I believe that little red airplane said something to me as it switched by. So that was kind of her first encounter more directly with flight.
Speaker B: I like that she called it swished.
Speaker A: It's just switched. It's just saying hi.
Speaker B: It dive bomb me. It just switched.
Speaker A: I picture her as like a Disney princess and the plane is like a little animal. But after a ten minute flight of her own in 1919, earhart knew that she wanted to learn to fly on her own. She worked a variety of jobs, including photographer, truck driver, and stenographer at the local telephone company. And she managed to save up the $1,000 for flying lessons. Apparently her parents helped contribute to this kind of start fund as well, even though her mother was like, this is not a good idea.
Speaker B: But $1,000 at that time. Well, yes, incredible amount of money.
Speaker A: Well, because it wasn't just for the lessons. It was kind of a security deposit.
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: Like, planes are very expensive. They're not just going to let you be like, oh, I paid $20, here I go. So, in order to reach the airfield, earhart had to take a bus to the end of the line and then walk 4 miles to get to the airfield, which is 6 km for any non American listeners out there. Uh, there you go. Just, uh, wait. Tom king. Just wait is all I'm going to say.
Speaker B: Tom, this is my ploy to make sure that you listen to every episode, just saying your name every single episode so that you listen. Because that was the only way that I feel like I got you to listen to any of our episodes. So you're welcome. Continue listening and wait for your shout out.
Speaker A: Yes, wait for it. I can't give it away so early in the podcast.
Speaker B: I know, I'm really bad about that. Sorry.
Speaker A: You're just excited. But everyone you can cross off real person shout out on your bingo card at least three times over at this point.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. We already shouted out Ruth and Shelby.
Speaker A: Yeah, Tony.
Speaker B: Tony is real.
Speaker A: Yes, the husband is real. I was at the husband's real. Alright, so Amelia, um, Earhart, she actually learned to fly from another female aviator named Anita, nickname Snook. Uh, which I love.
Speaker B: Snook.
Speaker A: The only snookie I care about.
Speaker B: Why have I never heard of her?
Speaker A: Because, um, patriarchy.
Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Speaker A: Probably.
Speaker B: And she didn't die in an airplane. Uh, related way, maybe?
Speaker A: Why would you say that, Emma? We don't know. I don't know what happened to Miss Snook. I didn't research her.
Speaker B: That's okay. I'll look into her later because I really like her name.
Speaker A: We love it. And I love this anecdote So when Amelia Earhart decided, I'm going to go all in. I'm going to be a pilot, she cut her hair short and she bought a leather jacket, but she didn't want to stand out like a sore thumb. Like, oh, here's this kind of rich white girl who just bought a jacket and wants to, uh, think she can fit in. So she actually slept in the jacket for three days to make it look worn out, which I kind of love.
Speaker B: That's really sweet. Yeah, horrible sleep, but sweet.
Speaker A: All right, now I'm going to share my little screen with you because this is how we're doing Photos. Um, so in case you didn't know, that's what Amelia Earhart looks like. She's cute. And my caption is, if you don't have a crush, you're wrong, because Amelia Earhart, guys, is so cute.
Speaker B: She's adorable. She really is adorable.
Speaker A: I love her.
Speaker B: And she's one of those women of history that she's so iconic because she's so singular in who she is. I love it. Yeah.
Speaker A: In the, um, media, she was referred to sometimes as Lucky Lindy or Lady Lindy, because apparently she looked similar to fellow aviator Charles Lindberg, which I think is interesting.
Speaker B: It's rude. Yeah.
Speaker A: I was like, or she can just be Amelia Earhart. All right, so on October 22, 1922, earhart flew her plane, nicknamed the Canary, because it was bright yellow to an altitude of 14,000ft or 4300 meters, setting a world record for female pilots, which I'm like, rude. We don't need to, okay. She can just be a doctor or a pilot without being a female doctor or a female pilot. Although I do love throughout many of these articles, they refer to Earhart as an aviatrix, which I just love. It sounds so, like yeah, fancy.
Speaker B: It does. Out of all that, I was having this conversation with my dad the other night. There's no real difference between an actor and an actress or a hero or a heroine or whatever. And he, um, was like, yeah. I mean, the route is the same, so it doesn't make logical sense to really change it. It's just the way that we've done it. And I was like, yeah, but we don't have to continue. Yeah.
Speaker A: I refer to myself as an actor, not as an actress.
Speaker B: Yeah. I wonder, would there be a female version of a book binder? We were talking about the binding. Uh, it sounds like a wear corsets, like, constantly. Or I put people in corsets, more likely, maybe.
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker B: Anyway.
Speaker A: Like Madame de la Crois from Bridgeton.
Speaker B: Oh, yeah, the mojo. I finished Bridgeton, and I started out.
Speaker A: With so stay tuned for some Scottish legends coming from Emma. In future episodes, maybe. On May 15, Amelia Earhart became the 16th woman in the United States to be issued a pilot's license. Her license is number 6017 by the Federation Aeronautic International, or FAI. So she was only, uh, the 16th woman in the US.
Speaker B: That's crazy, though, that there were 15 other women before her that I haven't heard of. Yes. Other than that lindberg's wife. I think she was.
Speaker A: I know not. I will say there's a really good episode of stuff you, uh, missed in history class about Amelia Earhart. And I think either in that episode or in an additional episode, they talk about kind of female pilots in the early 1009, hundreds in the US. So check them out. They're cool.
Speaker B: Cool.
Speaker A: In 1928, she was the first female passenger to cross the Atlantic via airplane. She was accompanying, uh, Pilot Wilmer Stoltz. But she herself, she described that journey and her, uh, role in it as a stack of potatoes because, literally, she broke that record, technically. But she was the first female passenger to cross the Atlantic. So, not to be content with being a stack of potatoes, she became the first woman to fly solo across the North Atlantic continent and back in August 1928. So that same year okay. She competed in flying competitions and continued to advocate for women's participation in the field of aviation, which is me kind of summing up the middle of her career, um, as quickly as possible, because there's so much to talk about. So she's awesome. In 19, uh, 32, she became the first woman to make a nonstop, solo, transatlantic flight. She did this in a Lockheed Vega Five B, which we, uh, stood in front of. We did? Oh, yeah, we did. I looked for that picture, but I'm pretty sure it's on your phone.
Speaker B: It is on my phone. So, for my Hendu my, uh, bachelorette party before my wedding to Tony, who is real, um, we did a scavenger hunt around the museums in DC. And one of the things to find was Amelia Earhart's plane. And Shannon, um, stood in front of it, and I took a picture, and she looked all cute, and she was wearing a little bandana around her head, so she looked very aviatrics. So it was cute.
Speaker A: It was cute.
Speaker B: But yeah. That's a nice plane. Yeah.
Speaker A: And she received the United States Distinguished Flying Cross for that achievement, for crossing the Atlantic alone, nonstop. And then in 1935, she became a visiting faculty member at Purdue University as an advisor to aeronautical engineering and a career counselor, to quote, woman students. I'm like that's. Such a weird way to describe students, but okay.
Speaker B: But that's so cool.
Speaker A: She was also a member of the National Women's Party and an early supporter of the Equal Rights Amendment.
Speaker B: Of course she was. But how could she not be?
Speaker A: Truly? All right, so now we get to the journey. That was all the background. This is the journey. You're okay? Not quite yet. Okay.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: So, early in 1936, earhart began planning a trip that would take her around the globe. So, while other people had flown around the world previously, hers would be the longest journey because she would be roughly following the line of the equator okay. Which is the thickest part of the globe. So the longest flight distance.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: So she received funding from Purdue University, which I'm like, man, it must be nice to have a job where people pay you to do stuff instead of you have to pay to go to school.
Speaker B: Yeah. Really?
Speaker A: Performing arts. Um, so, in July of 1936, she had a Lockheed Electra Tene built at the Lockheed Aircraft Company to her specifications, uh, which included extensive modifications to the fuselage to incorporate many additional fuel tanks. Which makes sense, because if you're flying long distances, you don't want to have to stop all the time.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Because sometimes there are oceans you don't want to stop, or you may not be able to stop.
Speaker B: Sometimes there are oceans of the planet.
Speaker A: In case you didn't know.
Speaker B: Whoever met that percentage is yes.
Speaker A: So, initially, Earhart chose Captain Harry Manning to be her navigator for this journey. He had been the captain of the President Roosevelt, which is the ship that brought her back from Europe in 1928. So after she was a sack of potatoes, she came back on this boat called the President Roosevelt, and he was the captain. He was also a pilot and a skilled radio operator who knew Morse code. So a handy guy to have.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: However, on a previous CrossAmerica flight, um, that had Amelia Earhart, this Captain Manning, and Earhart's husband, George Putnam, aboard, captain Manning's navigation had been kind of questionable. The discrepancy was written off as kind of being minor because the flight path that they were on was very close to state lines. So he said they were in this state when actually they were in this other state. But it was really close. So people were like, It's, uh, fine, it's all good. But later on, um, Putnam, uh, who's Earhart's husband, and her business partner, Paul Mance, who was himself a Hollywood stunt pilot, they decided they needed to put Manning's navigation skills to a test. With a night flight, his navigation was deemed to be 20 miles off, which is actually within the generally accepted 30 miles radius, or, um, like, 30 miles. What am I trying to say?
Speaker B: This short graph.
Speaker A: You know what I mean? Like, the allowable difference.
Speaker B: Yeah, I can't think of the word.
Speaker A: We're not good at math. We don't remember, but you get it. So, by general aviation standards, he was deemed to be acceptable. But Earhart's team wasn't really willing to take any chances.
Speaker B: If 30 miles is the max in terms of, like, the threshold for that, it still seems like an incredibly high amount to have be 20 miles off.
Speaker A: This is also 1930, though. Like, the 1930 planes had only been around for, what, like, 20 years.
Speaker B: That point I keep forgetting.
Speaker A: Yeah, you keep forgetting that this is old school.
Speaker B: I keep forgetting history.
Speaker A: So, aviation contacts in the Los Angeles community pointed the team to a gentleman by the name of Fred Newman as an excellent follow up choice. So he had experience in both flight navigation and maritime navigation because he was at one point a ship captain. He had just left the airline, Pan Am, where he had a lot, um, of experience flying Pacific routes, which will be important. Le Terre so the original plan was for Fred Newman to navigate the Hawaii to Holland Island section, um, of the journey, which was particularly difficult. And then Manning would take over to continue with, um, Earhart to Australia, and then she would proceed on her own for the remainder of the journey, which I don't know how I would feel about that, but I guess you're going from Australia to Hawaii. So that's relatively straightforward in terms of distance.
Speaker B: Yeah. And if you're going well, you're going from a big island to a tiny island. I was going to say you're going from a tiny island to a big island. So you can see it. Fine.
Speaker A: No, not quite, but no.
Speaker B: Wrong way. Yes.
Speaker A: So that was the plan initially. So, on March 1737, earhart and her crew flew the first leg of the trip from Oakland, California, to Honolulu, Hawaii. And this group on this plane included Earhart, both Noon and Manning, as well as her business partner, Paul Mans, who is acting as their technical advisor. Okay, so when they reach Hawaii, there's some technical adjustments that need to be made. So the electra had to be serviced at the US. Navy's Luke Field on Ford Island in Pearl Harbor.
Speaker B: Fine.
Speaker A: Um, like doing some fine tuning. Again, this is a plane that was commissioned specifically for this trip. So making some adjustments. Um, cool. Three days later, they attempt to take off to officially start their around the world journey. On board were Earhart as the pilot, Nunin as navigator, and Manning as radio operator. So, technically, she had both navigators on board. But Noonan would be navigating and Manning wouldn't take over navigation until later in the journey. However, the plane never made it off the ground. So, during the takeoff run, there was what was called an uncontrolled ground loop, which general, very not informed Wikipedia explanation. Um, a ground loop is where things get out of balance enough that one wing is tipping to the ground and the other one is in the air. And you obviously can't fly if you're discombobulated. So, there was, um, an uncontrolled ground loop. The forward landing gear collapsed, both propellers hit the ground and the plane skidded on its belly, damaging a portion of the runway. So, Earhart and some of the reporters that were present indicated that one of the tires blew out. But others, including Captain Harry Manning, cited pilot error. Um, we're not quite sure. Some people say one thing, some say the other. In either case, the plane was not fit to fly and had to be returned to the lockheed factory for repairs. So returned to California to reset. Manning had already, um, taken a leave of absence from his regular affairs, his job, his family, whoever. He was like, hey, I'm going to be flying around the world. And, um, he cited these delays and these challenges and he officially cut ties with the project. So he's no longer going to be flying around the world.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: And I loved this quote. It said he, um, ended his association with the trip, leaving only Earhart with noonan. Neither of them were skilled radio operators anywho. That's fairbike. On June 1, Amelia Earhart and Fred Newman depart from Miami, Florida, on their second attempt at an around the world flight. So, in the interim between the two attempts, weather patterns had, um, shifted, which is why they opted instead for a west to east approach. Before, they were trying to do California to Hawaii and onward and onward, but now they're going west to east to east. Yes, they're going I mean, technically, the real first leg was California to Florida, but they didn't publicize that they were in Miami when, um, they were starting. So after numerous stops in South America, Africa, the Indian subcontinent and Southeast Asia, they arrived at Lay, New Guinea, on June 29 and 37. At this stage, about 22,000 miles of the journey had been completed. The remaining 7000 miles would be over the Pacific. And then we have another photo.
Speaker B: Photos.
Speaker A: Alrighty, so this is Amelia Earhart and adorable. And Fred Newman. This is taken, um, prior, um, to their journey to their flight.
Speaker B: They look adorable. And he also looks even though I know he's not at that moment, he looks like an old man. Like the way that he's standing, he's just like, nah, he needs to stand up.
Speaker A: I did see an article. I didn't, uh, end up including it, but recently, I say recently, some of the, the last couple of years, they came, um, up with AI technology to kind of animate old photos. And they have one of Emilia or Heart where it's kind of like a GIF in that it's just kind of like blinking and like smiling and shifting around. But it's cool to kind of see these historical figures come to life.
Speaker B: That would be awesome.
Speaker A: Yeah, terrifying. But awesome not terrifying.
Speaker B: I don't know. AI as a thing scares me anyway.
Speaker A: Well, they specifically said in the article that they keep it to a short loop and they don't colorize it to prevent deep fakes. I think it's fair. Like, people on the internet would have Amelia Earhart saying field day.
Speaker B: Yeah, field day. That's fair.
Speaker A: All right, so this next emma, we are in a plane, so you may want to buckle up.
Speaker B: Crap. Uh, all right, well, it has to be can I have one across my shoulders, too?
Speaker A: You could do like an army pilot.
Speaker B: Yeah, I was just about to ask. I want an army pilot. Seat belt. Because I don't want one just around my waist, because that never has made me feel safe. No, I need, uh, top, uh, gun style, like plug in plugin.
Speaker A: All right.
Speaker B: Ready? Okay, great. Because this tightened it. That was me tightening it.
Speaker A: Oh, good. I was worried you got punched accidentally in your mum's closet. The creepy monkey crawled out of the cabinet after you.
Speaker B: I honestly don't know where the monkey is because he's not in his normal spot.
Speaker A: He's right behind me.
Speaker B: I want to make dirty laundry.
Speaker A: No, I want to text your mom and be like, sneak up behind no.
Speaker B: She'S at her office. Luckily, she's getting WiFi put in in her office, so she's, like, gone for the morning. Thankfully, I'm the only person here, so if anything happens to me, it's the monkey's fault.
Speaker A: Yeah, well, hopefully not. This next section of my notes, I've just titled Trouble with A, uh, capital T. That rhymes with P, then stands for pool. Musical reference.
Speaker B: You're welcome. Took me a minute.
Speaker A: Emma didn't jump on board.
Speaker B: I remember watching you in that musical, and that's the only exposure I have to that musical. Really?
Speaker A: You haven't seen the Dick Van Dyke version? No, to be fair, if I have.
Speaker B: I don't remember it fair.
Speaker A: All right, well, trouble right here in the South Pacific. On july 2, 1937, earhart and noonan took off from lay airfield. Their intended destination was Howland Island, a flat sliver of land 6500ft long and 1600ft wide and 2556 miles away. I'm not going to read all of that in kilometers. I'm sorry. So many numbers, you know, miles.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I feel like the whole rest of the world is able to conceptualize the conversion, and we're like, me, boom. I don't know.
Speaker B: Correct.
Speaker A: When they took off from Lay Airfield, some witnesses reported seeing a radio antenna that may have been damaged during takeoff. But no radio antenna was found on the runway, so that's kind of a disputed report. There were overcast weather conditions, which is always a complication with flight, especially when it's 19 and 37. And they may have been using outdated maps. Later investigations showed that Newton's chart of the islands position was off by five nautical miles. And I just wrote how. Question mark. Question mark. Because they didn't explain what the later investigations were. I am assuming that there were multiple copies of the chart, because I'm like, well, if there was only one and it went down with him, how did you know it was off? So they must have had multiple copies.
Speaker B: Also five. It makes me laugh, because nautical miles are, like, 1.3 miles. It's not all that much more than a mile. Well, I'm like, why.
Speaker A: If you are a sailor, right in and let us know. What the heck?
Speaker B: I also don't know if I'm exact and exactly how much of more than a mile it is, but I know it's just about that.
Speaker A: As we know, Tony has informed Emma that she should never speak with confidence on anything she has not specifically researched for this podcast.
Speaker B: Yeah. And he will continue to tell me that, because apparently I do it a lot outside of my own life. It will be like a movie that I haven't seen. And I'm like, uh, yeah, that's the plot.
Speaker A: And it's like, totally what happens.
Speaker B: What? And I'm like, yeah, that's it. It's mostly because I don't want to continue the conversation or I'm misremembering something.
Speaker A: You're like. Shut it down. Shut it down.
Speaker B: Stop.
Speaker A: You just, um, fully embody, uh, the Kathy Clay attitude of strong and wrong.
Speaker B: Uh.
Speaker A: So, um, during the flight, noonan may have been able to do some celestial navigation to determine their position. They also noted in one, um, of these articles what are you doing?
Speaker B: Celestial navigation sounds like they're in space. I know what it means. I know that he's charting himself with the stars of where they are. But, like, celestial navigation sounds like, well, we made it to space, and now we are traveling from start to start.
Speaker A: Emma, we'll get there. Don't worry.
Speaker B: What?
Speaker A: Yes, don't worry. So they made a note in one of these articles that the plane would cross the international date line during the flight, which, failing to account for the date line, uh, could account for a one degree or 60 miles position error.
Speaker B: 60 miles?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Dang. Sorry.
Speaker A: I love Emma getting mad at scientific, um, Facts is my favorite segment of this podcast.
Speaker B: I'm not mad, I'm just surprised.
Speaker A: True. So apparently, throughout this flight, um, Earhart actually had to drop an altitude just due to the heavy cloud cover. Um, and then at 843 on July 2, earhart radioed the Ataska the following message KHAQQ, which were the electra's call letters. So her plane's, uh, call letters to Ataska. We are on line one, uh, 57337. So the Ataska was a us. Coast Guard ship that had been stationed very close to the island that they are, um, traveling to, to Holland Island to be a navigational assist for the plane, as well as to fairy news reporters that were tracking their journey. They just sent it as a support because, as previously mentioned, the island that they're going for is very small, it's very skinny. Um, that's what that ship was doing, and she was trying to communicate with it. They sent up smoke plumes to help to try and visually assist Airhart as well as contact via radio through several different methods, as is the case with a lot of this research, which I'll get into further in a little bit. There's so much of it, it's so dense that if you're very interested, um, you can go and check that out. I didn't have the mental capacity to get into all of the technicalities of the radio, but there are different wavelengths and, um, different methods, and none of them were successful, unfortunately, in making contact. Earhart didn't. Actually have that, uh, much training on her newly installed equipment. Nor did Nunan, as we previously noted, neither of them were very skilled radio communicators. So that's less than ideal.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: And, um, she was able to make contact with the Ataska, but they could not get her on the right frequency to receive their messages. And then we're going to share the screen again. All of these photos you can find, uh, on our Instagram. So this is a radio log from the paper from the Ataska. And you can see, um, that these are her call signs, like signal. I don't really understand what any, uh, of it means, but they have.
Speaker B: Wow, that's really cool.
Speaker A: Yes. If any of, uh, you are friends with me on Facebook, as some of you are, this, uh, is why at 130 in the morning this morning I was posting on Facebook. No spoilers, but you all, I love the National Archives. Um, I do. There's so much there is so much.
Speaker B: There's that there's the photograph of Elvis and Nixon shaking hands and meeting.
Speaker A: Yes. Yes. There's your callback to a previous episode friends. If you're looking for that on your ring, you're welcome.
Speaker B: I wore my Elvis shirt the other day and got a lot of compliments. So I'm real happy about that.
Speaker A: You're so snazzy.
Speaker B: I was schnazzy my bedazzled. Elvis shirt makes me happy.
Speaker A: We love that. So Earhart was able to communicate at several points that they were running low on fuel and that they were looking for this island. They were looking for the Ataska. She was not seeing them. Earhardt's transmissions seemed to indicate that she and Noonan believed they had reached the Holland's charted position, which was incorrect by the aforementioned five nautical miles, which is about 10 km. But the island in question is only 10ft high. So it's both skinny and short.
Speaker B: What.
Speaker A: Some postulate that because it has such a low profile, it just didn't stand out against the sea when you're looking down on it from the sky, especially when it's coupled with heavier cloud cover. So they could have just flown over it and not even realized it was known.
Speaker B: So it's 10ft high on a good day. How long is it?
Speaker A: It is starting back. Here we go. It is, um, 6500ft long, which is 2000.
Speaker B: Okay. So it's pretty long, but not at all that tall, right? Golly.
Speaker A: Yeah. So some postulate, um, that they didn't see. It also five nautical miles. They may not have been looking in the right place or expected to see it. Maybe they saw it, but they were like, that's not the correct island, because we're not kind of like Flight 19 in the Bermuda. Maybe they totally flew over it, but they thought it was a different set of islands. So at some point, like I said, her last transmission, um, was KHAQQ to Ataska. We are online. 15733 seven. And then they were not able to make contact anymore, and they assumed that the flight had gone down, that the plane had gone down. 66 aircraft and nine ships were involved in the search and rescue effort to locate Earhart and Nunan. It was authorized by FDR himself. Um, it took two weeks and cost $4 million. After that, Earhart's husband, George Putnam, hired civilian ships to continue on in the search. Anytime I hear, like, civilian ships, it just reminds me of Dunkirk. I know that's not related at all, but that's what I think of it's.
Speaker B: Not little fishermen in their tiny boats chugging along. That's true. Maybe they were.
Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, we're in the South Pacific. They're a waterbased system. That's true. So, in 1939, two years after their disappearance, there's been no sign of these aviators. Amelia Earhart and Fred Newman are declared dead in absentia by the US. Government.
Speaker B: That's so sad. Poor George.
Speaker A: Yeah. So those are the facts as we know them, and now we get into the theories.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: And, uh, y'all you better get your bingo cards ready, because there are some unexpected things in this. So prepare yourself.
Speaker B: So excited. Okay. I'm ready for the Charlie Dave at all.
Speaker A: Um, yes, we're starting. We have, uh, one that has a lot of evidence, and then we have some kind of kooky ones, and then we circle back to another one with more evidence.
Speaker B: Okay. I'm excited.
Speaker A: There's a group called the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery shortened Tiger like, T-I-G-H-A-R.
Speaker B: They used the because they were like, Tiger. Doesn't sound right.
Speaker A: Tiger. So they believe that Earhart ultimately landed on Gardner Island, which is a nearby deserted island that is now called Niku Moro, which is just a fun thing to say, but it makes my brain trip every time I look at it. When she couldn't locate, uh, Holland Island, that she landed on Gardner Island instead, and then they perished as passed away because nobody could find them. So, in her last communication, the quote line one five seven, uh, three three seven indicates that the plane was flying on a northwest to south east navigational line that bisected Howland Island. If they missed Howland, they would either fly northwest or southeast, back and forth to try and find it. To the northwest is just open ocean for miles and miles and miles and miles. To the southwest is NICU Moro. So it would make more sense that, based on the information they had, they would go southwest because there's a better chance that there's land, which is what Flight 19 should have done. Just keep going west. You're going to hit Texas or Florida or Mexico. But anyway, um, refer to an earlier episode if you'd like to hear me get mad about that. Go ahead. So, a week following their disappearance, on July 2, a week later, a military plane that was part of the rescue effort flew over Gardner Island and issued the following report. Quote here signs of recent habitation were clearly visible, but repeated circling and zooming failed to elicit any answering wave from possible inhabitants. And it was finally taken for granted that none were there. At the eastern end of the island, a tramp steamer of about 4000 tons. So a boat lay high and almost dry, uh, head onto the coral beach with her back broken in two places. The lagoon at Gardner looked sufficiently deep and certainly large enough so that a sea plane or even an airboat could have landed or taken off in any direction with little, if any, difficulty given a chance. It is believed that Miss Earhart could have landed her aircraft in this lagoon and swam or waited ashore. End quote. So we'll come back to that bandage camp a little bit later.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: So when Gardner Island was temporarily colonized by the British in skeletal remains, 13 bones, to be exact, were found near evidence of campfires and animal bones consistent with hunting, and also based on the way that the clams were opened and the fish was consumed, aka the heads were not eaten. The person that was around these campfires was probably not a Pacific Islander.
Speaker B: So interesting.
Speaker A: That's pretty notable. However, there's been a lot of back and forth about this skeleton. First of all, they refer to it as a skeleton. It's 13 bones. It's not a complete skeleton. So, in 1941, a scientist claims after his analysis that the skeletal remains are a man. But in 1998, University of Tennessee anthropologist Richard Yance reinterpreted them as coming from a woman of European ancestry and about Earhart's height. 2015, I wrote JK, we're back to thinking it's a man. However, in 2018, a study found that historical records of the bones measurements oh, because, by the way, the bones, uh, were then lost after they were analyzed in 1941 because no one can keep track of anything.
Speaker B: He's so angry.
Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway, um, so in 2018, the historic records of these bones measurements match Earharts measurements closer than 99% of the general population.
Speaker B: Okay, so they're hers. I mean, maybe based upon the evidence.
Speaker A: So they use an inseam length and the waist circumference from a pair of Earhart's trousers, obviously, that she didn't take with her on the, um, trip. But they use those to help compare with the historical records of these bone measurements.
Speaker B: Well, I'm hoping they were paying attention to the style of the day, uh, because your waste in the 30s was much higher. Anyway. Never mind.
Speaker A: That's a good question. I don't know.
Speaker B: I don't either.
Speaker A: All right. So, Emma yes. I am so glad this next part, I am so glad that I did not learn about it last night, because it is horrifying.
Speaker B: Oh, yeah? Yeah. Is it the thing that you sent me? Not the thing you sent me, but the thing you told me you were going to preemptively get me back for scaring you in our, uh, next week's episode.
Speaker A: Yes. Uh, correct. So what happened to the rest of the skeleton? The average adult skeleton, in case you didn't know, which I didn't know, has 206 bones.
Speaker B: Makes sense.
Speaker A: So where are the other 193 bones of bones person? The answer might be coconut crabs.
Speaker B: Oh, no. I'm like cannibalism for some reason, that was more interesting than coconut crabs. And now I'm terrified.
Speaker A: Yeah, you should be. This is from National Geographic, which essentially this whole podcast should be brought to you by National Geographic, because I cited, I think, six different articles, and that was a conservative constraint on my part.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: I could have kept going, but I was like, you know what? We're recording in 30 minutes. I should wrap it up. So, this is a quote from Nagio. As the largest land invertebrates on the planet, coconut crabs can measure up to 3ft across and clock in at over £9. In short, they are too big.
Speaker B: Correct. National Geographic. Correct.
Speaker A: Emma, you get to see a Coca.
Speaker B: Uh crap. Oh, my God.
Speaker A: Look at it. Isn't that terrifying? Oh, my God. Isn't it just horrifying?
Speaker B: Oh, my God.
Speaker A: And then it'll be more horrifying in a second. Hold on.
Speaker B: Great. Thanks.
Speaker A: So, these crabs are omnivorous and are notorious as, quote, robber crabs for dragging prey back to their underground burrows. Scientists did a study where they brought a pig carcass to this specific island and the crab zema stripped the flesh, uh, from the body in two weeks.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A: Emma is just clutching her face in horror. You look like Edvard Munch. The scream.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A: And then here we go. The most unexpected shout out. You didn't expect to read Tom King. I don't know why you're still in school getting a doctorate when you're already an archaeologist. Here's another quote from Nat Geo. This tells us crabs drag bones, says Tom King, the group's former chief archeologist, but it doesn't tell us how far.
Speaker B: That's hilarious.
Speaker A: A year after the experiment, they discovered some bones had been dragged, 60ft from the body, but they couldn't account for all the remains. So crabs are terrifying. And actually, as horrifying as this is, it might actually be helpful in terms of if there is DNA evidence to be found, it would have a better chance of survival in an underground crab burrow than it would out on the surface because it's incredibly hot and humid.
Speaker B: Fair. However, the idea of having to investigate, uh, that borough and having to deal with the crab not wanting you in there is a little too much for me.
Speaker A: Well, that's why you and I are podcasters, not scientists.
Speaker B: Hell, yeah.
Speaker A: Also, the article, specifically, it's in the show notes, if anyone else is ready to be terrified. It talks about how during the day it's fine because it's really hot, but at night, the crabs will circle you. Oh, my God. So, yeah, that's my preemptive strike against whatever you're going to freak me out with in, like, uh, an hour next week.
Speaker B: You're welcome.
Speaker A: Yeah, thanks.
Speaker B: All right. That was so gross. I hated that so much.
Speaker A: Yeah, but aren't you, like I'm so glad I read that at 830 in the morning and yeah.
Speaker B: You wouldn't have slept.
Speaker A: No, I wouldn't. Also further reason to never go on survivor. Uh, nothing like they're in Fiji, but Fiji, uh, is, like, relatively close. I mean, in terms of ocean, it's like, a thousand miles away. Anyway, we're leaving the carnivorous. Uh, omnivorous crazier.
Speaker B: Perfect. Leave them there.
Speaker A: Yes. So on this island, other artifacts that have been found include US. Made items such as a jackknife, a woman's compact, a zipper pull, and glass jars, including a jar for freckle cream, which Earhart was known to use.
Speaker B: That's interesting. I remember this from college of there being a class where we were studying something along the lines of, like, gilded age or whatever. And from, like, the middle of the 18 hundreds through to the 1950s, it was, like, gross to have freckles.
Speaker A: Well, yeah, because that meant you were out in the sun, and only poor people go in the sun.
Speaker B: Emma so silly. I'm covered in front of me, and I never go out in the sun.
Speaker A: If I did not have diabetes, I would be so down to go time traveling back to broke Europe because they loved themselves a curvy pale lady. They were like, that means you're rich because you eat and you don't go outside. I would have fit in so well.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Hair toss.
Speaker B: Hair toss. Um, I know you can't see. I know that, but it was very funny.
Speaker A: So also on this island, they've discovered a sextant, uh, which is a navigation device. And based on the make and model, essentially, um, that they've researched, this is the sort that Fred Newton would, uh, have used during that time period.
Speaker B: Okay. So I'm thoroughly convinced of this theory currently.
Speaker A: Well, just wait. My next note. Missing plane, question mark. No problem. The tide swept it away. Okay, so the tide was extremely low at the time of Earhart's last communication to the Alaska, indicating that she might have been able to land on the exposed reef of the island in her plane. And then the rest, um, of this next bit is from national geographic.
Speaker B: What part of this is not from national geographic?
Speaker A: The parts that are from Wikipedia and a couple of there's actually a lot of sources. I'm really many of them are national geographic.
Speaker B: Well, I mean reputable source. It's true. Absolutely.
Speaker A: I had to give them two different emails because in order to get three free articles a month, you have to sign up. But I already reached my three we.
Speaker B: Got to get you a subscription guy. Share this with your friends so that we can get people to do ads with us so that Shannon could have a national geographic subscription.
Speaker A: Thank you. Don't say that because then if my dad listens to this, he will 100% get me the magazine for Christmas. And then I'll feel really guilty because I will never read it. But I'll be I'll feel bad that I'll have it.
Speaker B: Mr. McCarthy, you heard here first. Don't get it.
Speaker A: Online, dad. Online. Because then I can use it for research for this podcast online.
Speaker B: All right.
Speaker A: Anyway, shout out to our nonsponsor, but should be a sponsor, not geo the line of position radio message was the last confirmed transmission from earhart, but radio operators received 121 messages over the next ten days. Of those, at least 57 could, um, have been from the Electra. So I guess based on the frequency and other technical stuff that I don't understand, but they narrowed it down to 57. Wireless um, station took direction bearings on six of them. Quote, four cross near the Phoenix Islands, said Tom King, Tiger senior archaeologist, in a previous interview. Quote, most messages were at night when the tide was low. So the tides are an important factor in this. Also, some people theorize that these messages came at night because it gets very hot inside an aluminum airplane during the day in the South Pacific. If the plane was just on the.
Speaker B: Beach and the crabs were out.
Speaker A: No, the crabs are out at night.
Speaker B: I know. So radio messages, right?
Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, so they're hiding in the plane.
Speaker B: From the crabs, is what I'm saying. Yeah.
Speaker A: Got you.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Although the crabs don't like attack living people.
Speaker B: You don't know that.
Speaker A: I do. I read the article.
Speaker B: They don't know that.
Speaker A: They're waiting for you to die so they can scavenge your weight.
Speaker B: I now have an image of a line of crabs at night just on the edge of the shore, just, like, snapping their little claws and going, we're waiting. I don't like that at all.
Speaker A: Well, I don't either, but I think you'll like this next part better.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: So, in 2017, a team of four forensic dogs and their handlers traveled to the island to investigate. So these dogs are trained by the Institute for Canine Forensics good job, babies. And they have discovered human remains as old as 1500 years and as deep as 9ft.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: So they are very accurate, apparently. You need to go look at the article about this because I, um, could not include this photo. But there are photos of these joggos wearing their little special booties and cooling vests because it's very hot in the South Pacific. And these are like border collies. So they're very fluffy dogs. And each of them gets their own feature photo with their name and their handler's information. So please go look at the article.
Speaker B: Do you remember any of their names?
Speaker A: Marcy Berkeley. I should have written it down. I literally was like, write it down. I was going to want to know. I'm sorry. Flying through.
Speaker B: No, it's fine. I'll look it up.
Speaker A: Yes, if you would like to know the dog's names, you can go check it out. It's a National Geographic article. So all four of the dogs, at separate times, alerted at the base of one particular tree, indicating that at some point, human remains were decomposing there. And they did bring something else I learned. If you don't want to donate your body to, um, doctor research, you could donate your body to Science for, like, the what is the name of this institute for canine, um, Forensics. You can donate your bones because then they use them as, like, controls. So they'll plant bones in a particular environment to make sure the dogs, like, their sniffers, are working?
Speaker B: Essentially, yeah.
Speaker A: So you could donate your skull to the Royal Shakespeare Company for a production of Hamlet. You could donate it to the Canine Forensics for training dogs, all kinds of things.
Speaker B: I really like the idea that my will is just going to be filled with what to do with my body and not with my stuff.
Speaker A: I was going to say, isn't this a much more fun idea than being turned into a creepy vase?
Speaker B: I'm still interested in the vase, but I am considering having them chop, um, my head off and then have that as part of the dogs and the rest of me that you've made in two of us.
Speaker A: I'll let you and Tony work that one out. Yeah.
Speaker B: Sorry, babe. No.
Speaker A: He'll be like, what? Yes.
Speaker B: Um.
Speaker A: Excavation near this tree that was alerted upon by these dogs revealed no bones. So they took soil samples that were sent off to the lab to test for residual DNA. But there was inconclusive evidence, um, probably due to the warm temperatures and the humid environment of the island, both in terms of it made it harder for these border collies to work. Apparently, they don't do well in temperatures higher than 80 degrees, like metal with their, uh, fair, and also not ideal in terms of, um, preserving DNA. DNA likes cold environments, so surface, probably not. But they did say they did make a point in the article to point out that these dogs do not necessarily go where the remains are. They go where the scent is the strongest. So if remains have been scuttled away into an underground borough by a terrifying crab monster, it's possible that the scent is just stronger at the tree, but the actual remains are elsewhere. Okay, but they were only there for a certain amount of time, um, because.
Speaker B: It'S too hot for the babies.
Speaker A: Yes. Also, the dogs, they indicated in addition, um, to the heat and conditions on the ground, they had to fly 12 hours and then take, like, a four day boat trip to get to the island. That is a lot of information about the Gardnerisland Nikkarro, um, Islandtheory, which is the main theory of the International Group for Historic Eric Craft Recovery, also known as Tiger. That's their main bread and butter. Their website is in the show notes. And you guys, they have kind of a two minute overview summation. So if you're just kind of ready to get it in passing, which, I.
Speaker B: Don'T know why you'd need the two.
Speaker A: Minute version after you listen to this, but maybe you just want to check it out. But they also have an itemized list of all of the evidence that's been collected so far. So again, I could have gone all the way down, but I have other theories to bring you up next. Get your, uh, bingo, uh, card ready because our next theory is aliens.
Speaker B: Oh yes. They're hanging out with Flight 19.
Speaker A: Yes. So apparently this area of the South Pacific is a quote, hotbed for otherworldly activity. Here's a quote from USA Today conspiracy uh, theorists imagine that the Easter Island heads were built by aliens using lasers. That there's a skyscraper built by extraterrestrials at the bottom of the Pacific. And the froglike statues of Marchesca Island depict an ancient alien race. Unquote conspiracists claim that, um, earhart, uh, was in fact not lost at sea, but rather beamed up by alien investigators to be examined and or cryogenically frozen and or with the way to create a whole new race of life on another planet. And my follow up questions did they not take Fred? If not, where's Fred? If not, where's? Fred's body. Uh, and where is the plane? Like, did they take all of it.
Speaker B: Right out of the atmosphere?
Speaker A: I mean, I will say this theory only popped up in one of the many articles I looked at, so it's a little short one, but I had to include it because I know you love a weird alien situation.
Speaker B: Well, the most exciting part about that is the fact that it's unexplainable, inexplicable. I hate that word because it's like inconceivable. Yeah. But it's also unable to be proven either right or wrong. So yeah, that's true yet.
Speaker A: Alright, trucking right along cause we have more to talk about. The next theory is that Amelia Earhart actually survived and assumed a new identity.
Speaker B: Why was George not nice?
Speaker A: I don't know. Okay, so this theory posits that she moved uh, to New Jersey.
Speaker B: Why?
Speaker A: Which like, why would you, no offense, family that's listening. But the taxes, it's so crowded, all the things. She moved to New Jersey, remarried, and changed her name to Irene Bolem. Bolem unclear. USA Today is where I got, um, this little tidbit. Author W. C. Jameson wrote in Amelia, uh, Earhart Beyond the Grave that he had interviewed the nephew of a former US. Army official who said it was common knowledge in, quote, high ranking intelligence circles that Earhart was, quote, involved in an intelligence gathering operation.
Speaker B: Well, I don't disbelieve that. That would be something that I think the US. Government, especially at that point in time, would have been interested in doing. Especially if she was fully willing to be like, I'm going to do this to set a record. And they were like, great, can you also maybe do this while you're doing it? And we'll fund it and, like, finagle stuff? So I don't disbelieve that at all. The nephew thing is like, dude, you don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Like, if anybody asked me what my dad's job was in the Army, I'd be like, I don't know. He got deployed a bunch of places. Um, he was in Intelligence, which as a kid, I thought meant computers, because intel was like, the computer chip. I guess that's what and I was like, my dad is not good at computers. What?
Speaker B: Sorry, Mr. McCarthy.
Speaker A: It's okay. He's better now. He shouts at the Alexa less.
Speaker B: That's good.
Speaker A: Jody is training him good. So this idea that she moved to New Jersey and, um, became Irene was originally presented in the book amelia Earhart Lives by Joe Closs. However, this theory is a little hard to believe because, um, the real Irene submitted a one $5 million lawsuit against him, saying that his claims were untrue. She was a banker. She already had a life. So this is a little hard to believe.
Speaker B: Uh, yeah, dude, if you're making up a theory, and I don't know if he maybe he fully believed it, but I'll go for somebody who's still alive and hanging out and able to fight back, and then he probably is like, well, she only fought back because it's true, and that kind of thing.
Speaker A: So I don't know, I guess but if it was really her, though, she probably has enough money both from her previous endeavors and potentially the US. Government, then why would she need $1.5 million? And if she really was her you know what I mean? That just doesn't hold up.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But as we previously alluded to, some claim that this new identity theory is true in tandem with the fact that Amelia Earhart was a spy.
Speaker B: A spy.
Speaker A: A spy. Bingo.
Speaker B: Card.
Speaker A: There you go. Um, evidently working for FDR and his administration, um, Randall Brink, who wrote the book Lost, um, Star, theorizes that Earhart never intended to fly to Holland Island. Instead, she and Nunan were tasked to document Japanese island installations for the US. Government. When they were detected by the Japanese and shot down or forced to land, she got too famous. Like, she got too popular that she could no longer be a spy. So she had to fake her death, slash her disappearance, and change her identity to become a new person. I wrote kind of a dick move to not include your husband and then get remarried, if you ask me whether or not you're a spy.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, if that is the case, that she's living in New Jersey with a new family, it might be that she's somewhere in Nova Scotia just hanging out, but maybe not now.
Speaker A: She'd be yeah, probably not. Um yeah, she was born in 18.
Speaker B: Now, no, she's definitely not alive anymore. But again, I don't disbelieve that she would be recruited in that way. I do kind of disbelieve that both her and Frank were recruited in that way.
Speaker A: Fred. Fred Newman.
Speaker B: Fred Newman. Sorry, Fred, but I only say that because the other guy, um, Manning, who pieced out of the thing, um, it was already something that they had planned. So maybe it was like it was planned beforehand. He dipped out because something happened. And then once they were going to start up in Miami, that's when FDR's administration was like, yo, can you also do these things?
Speaker A: But I don't know, I find it a little like I think it's easy for our brains to be like, oh, yeah, she was a spy. Because there are other instances of famous, particularly women, using their celebrity as kind of hiding in plain sight to do covert operations. However, no government documents that's from FDR's personal files or the Navy or army intelligence have ever surfaced that reference Earhart as a covert agent, which, like we said, she would be, what, over 120.
Speaker B: Years old at that point. It's well beyond declassification.
Speaker A: So she's definitely passed in whatever case. So I feel like not like, oh, the army needs promo, but they like to release interesting stories that are positive in a way.
Speaker B: But we also have learned that the government doesn't and can't keep secrets from, uh, people for all that long because people like to tell secrets. So even if it were something that were true, we would probably know it unless there was absolutely no documentation on it. It was just like a handshake agreement kind of situation of like, when she got back, she would give a report and then they would get things running. But I feel like it wouldn't work that way.
Speaker A: The National Archive does have a letter that Amelia Earhart wrote to FDR before she set off on her around the world trip because she was actually very close friends, um, with the First Lady.
Speaker B: That makes sense to me. Yes. Eleanor was a badass, um, yes.
Speaker A: So the next theory is that Amelia Earhart, after crash landing, be forced to land something along those lines, was forced into a role of Tokyo Rose, which, uh, was the title assigned to any Englishspeaking, uh, woman on the World War II airwaves who was reading off Japanese propaganda. I think for this theory to work, we definitely have to assume that Earhart, um, was being held captive. They didn't really go into it super depth, but I don't see the bridge to, like, yeah, she was this American aviator to now I'm supporting the Japanese. I think it was definitely a captive situation. Her husband, George Putnam, personally investigated this theory, listening to many recordings to confirm that it was not his lost wife's voice.
Speaker B: That's so sad, because you know that he's probably listening to it going like a. Little bit hoping that it's her voice, because, one, he wants to hear her voice again, and two, he wants to see if she's still alive. Like, oh, I can't imagine that kind of heartache. Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A: Well, this is going to make you sadder.
Speaker B: Oh, great.
Speaker A: I thought this was I'm going to choose to view it as a cute fact, because not only were they married, but then they continued to work closely together. I think in other circumstances, this would be not cute and instead disrespectful of boundaries, but we're going to look at it, uh, as cute. Okay. He asked Amelia Earhart to marry him six times before she agreed.
Speaker B: Oh, that's kind of cute. Though my parents didn't get married until my dad asked a second time, because the first time he asked, my mom was actually dating somebody else, and he knew it.
Speaker A: My mom and dad, um, they got divorced when I was in grade school. But I still think this is a funny story, especially if, you know, my dad. Apparently, when he asked my mom to marry him for the first time, they'd only been dating for, like, six months, and she thought he was joking.
Speaker B: Uh oh.
Speaker A: Which, if you've met my father, he's a very jokey, joke kind of guy.
Speaker B: That makes sense if he were just like, Nudge, nudge, marry me, and she were like, Haha. And he's like, Wait, no, wait.
Speaker A: Just kidding.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: At least that's how the story has been told to me. We'll see how many of my family members listen to this, and if I get a correction, text or talk over the dinner table. All right, so next, I believe this is our final yes, our final theory, and our second of the more edited, supported carries on with this Tokyo Rose idea in that she and Noonan were taken prisoner by the Japanese. So in 2017, just like mere weeks before the dog sniffer, forensic dogs went out and alerted on the tree, which is kind of interesting because these are competing theories, right? Yeah, it's just interesting. So, in 2017, a photo was rediscovered in the National Archives that seemed to indicate that both Earhart and Noonan survived their fuel situation and made it to the Jalyat Atoll in the Japanese controlled Marshall Islands. And so this photo served as the primary source for a new History Channel documentary. I was not able to watch this documentary, but it looks very interesting. So historians and even a former executive assistant director for the FBI have damaged this photo and have deemed it to be undocumed. I'm going to share my screen again and again. You can see these on the Instagram. So this is the original photo. Pretty small, but they have a lovely little zoomed in version here. Um, so you'll see, there are two Caucasian individuals and the woman they assume it to be a woman because the hair is too long to be in fashion for a man. And it's also similar to Amelia, uh, Earhardt's signature short haircut. Uh, this figure is also wearing pants, but they're sitting on the edge of a dock. Um, their back is to the camera, so it's hard to make any sort of facial recognition. The man in the photo is standing over to the left. We have the zoomed in photo on the Instagram as well. And the hairline in particular is a very specific hairline. It's very sharply receding on one side. And this is almost identical to existing photos of Fred Newton. So that's what they point to, of like, this is them. It's totally them.
Speaker B: Totally.
Speaker A: Totally, totally. That's so interesting.
Speaker B: It really does look like Amelia Earhart from being told that's probably her, or potentially her, but also the fact that there are two Caucasian people, um, on that dock. Yes. And only two.
Speaker A: They also point to the fact that the female figure, the presumed Amelia Earhart, is looking over to the right. There's a Japanese barge that is towing and, uh, unclear object. I'm going to stop sharing my screen with Emma so I can read my notes again.
Speaker B: Sorry.
Speaker A: It's okay. So the Japanese photo, the photo shows a Japanese ship called Koshu towing a barge with something that appears to be 38 ft long, which is apparently the same length as Earhardt's plane.
Speaker B: Very specific to get from a photograph.
Speaker A: Okay. But people can do that. You know that guy on tickle, you.
Speaker B: Can figure out how tall people are. He's like, yeah.
Speaker A: And their hand next to a stop sign. People can do that. But science people. So, locals of this island have stories of seeing Amelia Earhart's plane crash land. And these stories have been passed down from generation to generation. They even immortalized these events in a series of postage stamps in the 1980s. So, like, there's one, like, showing the plane crashing and one like that the plane is being towed by a barge and all these things. And then it's theorized that from this island, from the Marshall Islands, that Amelia Earhart and Fred, um, Newton were taken to Saipan, where their fate is unknown, but they would be prisoners of war at that point. So probably not, um, a positive ending. It's thought that this photo in question that was discovered in the National Archives, um, may have been taken by an individual who was spying on the Japanese on the behalf of the United States, which could explain why no action was taken. If this photo did make it to anyone of importance, they couldn't reveal their source. Yes, which is unfortunate, but I guess technically, um, in this theory, a series of events, earhart and Newton are civilians and this person is a covert operative. So they would choose to protect that source, which is unfortunate. NBC News has a, um, nice little short two minute clip that sums up this theory pretty nicely. Talks about the new documentary. It's in the show Notes if you wanted to take a look. And then, Emma, here's the other thing that had me so excited about the.
Speaker B: National Archives last night.
Speaker A: Uh, at 130 in the morning, there is so in the Amelia Earhart section of the National Archives.
Speaker B: Oh, I love that. There's a section.
Speaker A: Yes. There's a typewritten letter dated January 7, 1939. And this letter, Emma, is pertaining to the contents of a literal message in a bottle. So this bottle washed ashore in the Bordeaux region of France on October 30, 1938. So a year and change after their plane went down, supposedly. Um, okay, so, um, it was discovered on October 30, 1938, and then was, um, typewritten up to transmit to the appropriate authorities, which is why it's dated January 7, 1939. Okay, so this bottle contained three items. One was a paper that had the following written in French god guide this bottle. I confide my life and that of my companions to it. Two, a lock of chestnut colored hair. Three, another letter, again in French, describing the author's experience being captured by the Japanese and imprisoned in the Marshall Islands. Their letter claims that Earhart, her male mechanic, is how he's referred to, and several other Europeans were also imprisoned. The full text of this letter is available at the National Archive. Link that's in the show notes. Also, you can sign up for the National Archives newsletter and you can become a civilian transcriber.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: I'm so excited.
Speaker B: I've already done that a couple of times.
Speaker A: I'm so excited.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: So I'm going to show Emma this document. Um, let me click on the correct, uh, thing. It didn't really work to.
Speaker B: Include it.
Speaker A: In the Instagram just because when you, um, zoom in, it's kind of blurry, but that's fair.
Speaker B: Wait, it was written in French?
Speaker A: It was. And then it was typed up to transmit to the appropriate authorities. But I have been a prisoner at, um, Jalia Marshalls by the Japanese in the prison. Uh, there. I have seen Amelia Earhart ABHR. And in another cell, her mechanic, a man, as well as several other European prisoners, held on charge of alleged spying on large fortifications erected on the atoll.
Speaker B: Okay, so this isn't from my assumption when you first read it, was that it was written by her.
Speaker A: No, it was by someone I assumed to be a Frenchman.
Speaker B: Okay, that makes so much more sense. How does Amelia Earhart know French? And that it would get to France?
Speaker A: I apologize. No, it's okay. So, yeah, this person and then they go on to talk about how, um, their specific situation, how they got captured. Actually, Amelia, um, Earhart isn't actually mentioned that much. So I would argue, if we're looking at it with a skeptics lens, I would argue that perhaps they included Amelia Earhart as, like, credibility not credibility, but to make people give care about their situation. Because who knows about random from France?
Speaker B: Jean Paul Schmidt exactly.
Speaker A: Yeah. I will note that this correspondence was not declassified until March 1, 1977.
Speaker B: Whoa.
Speaker A: That's 44 years ago. Just yesterday at the time of recording. I will say, though, that maybe is not indicative of anything like fancy or spy related. In high school, I spent two summers working in a museum, uh, and one of my project was going through old, um, microfiche, because it degrades and can actually be quite flammable, uh, which is why in old Hollywood, the film reels would just spontaneously catch on fire, which, uh, is not great when you have a warehouse full of flammable films. So one of my jobs was to go through all this old military microfiche and print off the first couple of pages so that they would know kind of what's on it and if it would be worth duplicating or if they had it already in the system. However, if I encountered anything that had classified top secret, Secret, anything like that, I had to stop, take it off the reel, put it in a pile, and then go to the declassification vault and get buzzed in by a guy with a Lanyard. And then they would take them, and I'd get them back, like, a day later, and they'd be like, yeah. These are now declassified troop rations from 1944. No longer classified. So it's possible that this message in a bottle letter just didn't get to that point get noticed until 1977.
Speaker B: But that's fair.
Speaker A: Also, Japanese authorities have told NBC and other sources that they have no records indicating that, uh, Earhart was ever in Japanese custody, which I think is pretty fair. I know governments like to protect their information, but Japan, historically, is pretty much an ally to the US. So I don't see why they would.
Speaker B: Yeah, and also, at this point, it doesn't matter. Like, they could say, well, we did have her. If it was true, we had her in a prisoner of war camp. We have record of that. But I think maybe it's like a celebrity thing of like, oh, my gosh, you kill Amelia Earhart. How dare you? I don't know.
Speaker A: See, I don't agree that it doesn't matter. I feel like someone with a better understanding of the international politics would probably have a more nuanced discussion. But I feel like, for instance, if it was China or Russia, um, that had had her, either they would have made a big deal of the fact that they had her, or they would never tell us because they, like, feeling that they have the upper handle.
Speaker B: You know what? That's totally fair.
Speaker A: Also, hate to burst your bubble if you're on board with this theory, because, um, basic research, like half an hour of research by this one reporter, revealed that this photo in question was actually published in a 1935 Japanese language Travelog, about the islands of the South Pacific. It is very interesting that the man, uh, in this photo and Fred newton do look very, very similar, like, they've done computer analysis, and it's a very high likelihood of facial recognition match. But, yeah, this photo is from two years before they even left on their final journey. Um, also goes to show that the History Channel is an entertainment, uh, channel that has a historical bent. They're not actually scientists, because literally in the article, this person was like, yeah, I searched in this Japanese research database, and this is the 10th item that showed up. It took me less than half an hour. And then they probably went and made, like, a two hour documentary about this photo and Amelia Earhart.
Speaker B: That's why Ancient Aliens is on the History Channel.
Speaker A: Yes. Because it's entertainment. I was going to say wrap it up, but that's not quite true. To wrap up this portion, the official belief of the US. Government is that after running, um, out of fuel, earhart and Noonan crashed their plane into the Pacific Ocean while attempting to reach Holland Island, which is approximately 946 miles from the Marshall Islands. So where it's theorized she was being held prisoner by the Japanese, and approximately 406 miles from Niku Moro Island, which is where the sniffer dogs were in 2002. And in 2006, the Deep Sea Company Nauticofs, um, looked for Earhart's plane near the spot where she last radioed, but the, uh, plane was not recovered. And I wrote, obviously, we need to get James Cameron on this issue.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Again, if you're interested, I would check out Tiger. Um, and National Geographic is your first stop, because there are a lot of expeditions in various parts of the region looking for Amelia Earhart throughout the years. I could not go through all of them.
Speaker B: Obviously not.
Speaker A: No. And then we have a couple more recent news stories that I thought were of note. Um, so a skull fragment that may be from the original skeleton found on NICU Moro was found in a storage facility in a museum on a nearby island, uh, and is currently being tested to see if it's a genetic match for any of Emilia Earhart's relatives. Again, similar to the Tom and Shoot case. Maybe we'll get some 23 and Me problem solving in this future.
Speaker B: That's really exciting.
Speaker A: Right? We love that.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Next we have Daniel Beck. He's a pilot who also manages the, uh, engineering program for the Penn State Radiation Science and Engineering Center, or ARSEC, which is home to the Briezeol Nuclear Reactor. I don't think it's the Marshall Islands documentary, but he saw a different National Geographic documentary about Earhart, and he got in contact with, um, someone at Tiger. And there's a metal panel that's been recovered from the storm debris on Nikki Moro, and they ran this metal panel through a neutron beam. There was a lot of science that I did not quite understand, but here's a helpful little quote.
Speaker B: Okay?
Speaker A: If there's paint or writing or a serial number, things that have been eroded or we can't see with the naked eye, we can detect those that's that they'd be able to tie it to Amelia Earhart's name somehow. At the time of the article, it indicated that they, um, were still doing research. And they did point out which I think is a helpful thing to remember, especially for those of us who don't do science ever. Even if they don't find anything of note, it's actually still helpful, uh, that they've done this research because it disqualifies that particular piece of evidence for future reference. So nobody else wastes time being like, no, it is her plan. They can be like, no, actually, the serial number is for this such and such from 1954, whenever. So that's cool. So in 2019. So relatively, um, recently, Robert Ballard and his team led an expedition to Nico Moro in search for pieces of Earhart's plane. Now, Emma, does the name Robert Ballard ring a bell to you for any reason?
Speaker B: Yes, it does, but I don't know why.
Speaker A: Oh, wow. You may recall that he discovered the, uh, wreckage of the Titanic.
Speaker B: Yes. Okay, good. All right. I knew it. Yeah. So Tony has actually been on the, um, submarine that they use to find the Titanic because his grandfather worked at, uh, Woods Hole, which is the Marine Institute in Cape Cod. Um, and he was friends with Ballard.
Speaker A: I'm so mad right now.
Speaker B: At least that's as far as I know. Again, I should say nothing with confidence until I get confirmation, um, from Tony.
Speaker A: Well, stay tuned for our corrections episode, I guess.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: All right. Unsurprising. I have another quote from National Geographic.
Speaker B: Yay.
Speaker A: So Tiger pinpoints the northwest side of the island as the site of the Plains Landing, where a ship called the S. S. Norwich City wrecked in, and where the island's lagoon opens to the sea in high tide. Three months after Earhart and Newman's disappearance, a British officer scouting the island for colonization took a photograph of the shipwreck. Various analysts claimed that a blurry shape to the left of it could be the Electra's landing gear. People who lived on the island after it was colonized later told Tygar investigators that they had found aluminum wreckage near the lagoons entrance. So let me share my screen real quick.
Speaker B: Share your screen? Share screen.
Speaker A: Here. Is this 1929 shipwreck. But remember, this photo is from 1937. Yes. Three months after their disappearance. So this shipwreck was from 1929. They just left it there.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: And then this indistinct object here is supposedly, um, potentially the landing gear of Amelia Earhart's plane. I think that photo is less significant than reports from Native people, um, who.
Speaker B: Later or not Native people, I guess.
Speaker A: People it doesn't specify. But people who later moved onto the island talk about how they found aluminum wreckage. And one of the articles was talking about how you can tell that they had that as a resource because they used it in their buildings and things like that. So there was evidence of aluminum, but until we get, um, neutron analysis from.
Speaker B: Whatever mhm Jimmy neutron analysis?
Speaker A: You know, that's what it's called, right?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Neutron Beam.
Speaker B: Yeah. Did they maybe think did Amelia and Fred maybe think that that wreckage was the ship that they were communicating with, potentially. And so they were like, oh, that must be the eyelid. We finally found it, even though it's definitely bigger than that.
Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. That's a fair point. Nobody mentioned that. But I think under heavy cloud cover, perhaps maybe that was part of the thought process, too. So, Robert Ballard used sonar to analyze the island and its surrounding waters. Apparently, he circled it, like, four or five times, the island. They sent ROV's, Argus, and Hercules around the island to look for airplane wreckage with the cameras. And these camera feeds were monitored around the clock by his scientists. However, there were no conclusive discoveries by this team. Um, they did learn a lot based on this 1029 rec of how debris moves underwater in this particular islands case. So if they find definitive evidence, um, on land, like DNA evidence with the sniffer dogs or the killer crabs or whatever, then they, um, could return to the area. And Robert Ballard said he knows exactly where he would continue the search if that returns. And then, uh, I just wanted to end on this one photo and this quote, which I think just, um, sums up the spirit of Amelia Earth. Please know I am quite aware of the hazards. She said, I want to do it because I want to do it. Women must try to do things as men have tried. When they fail, their failure must be but a challenge to others.
Speaker B: That's incredible.
Speaker A: This photo is also in the National Archives, and it was actually taken before, uh, their final take off. So one of the last photos of her ever taken, and that Emma Ruth and other fellow listeners, including chief archaeologist, uh, Tom King, is the mysterious disappearance of Amelia Earhart. Thank you.
Speaker B: Very well done.
Speaker A: I'm sorry. It's really long.
Speaker B: No, I loved it. It was so good. I loved it. So there's always, like, those morbid fascinations and stuff, and I had Bonnie and Clyde and Anastasia and all that kind of stuff, but Amelia Earhart was one, uh, of those things where I was like, it'd be so cool to figure out what happened to her. And this was so much better than I could have imagined.
Speaker A: Obviously, I was aware of her, and as I mentioned, towards the top, I had listened while I was working in that museum with the Declassification Vault. I had listened to the podcast about her, um, but I had no idea that the theories ran so deep.
Speaker B: That's so cool, though.
Speaker A: I love it. So, I mean, I guess if I had to pick one, I would go with the Niko Moro island.
Speaker B: Erie. I think that might have convinced me.
Speaker A: But it's one of those things when it's such a big mystery, it will not be acceptable solved until there is, like, a giant stroke of evidence. So somebody's got to go deal with the killer crabs.
Speaker B: Oh, God, not me. I vote not me.
Speaker A: Not it.
Speaker B: Good Lord, those things.
Speaker A: Tom King, follow up with us about your studies on this island.
Speaker B: I feel so bad, uh, now, because he's probably going to be like, guys, stop saying my name. Stop it.
Speaker A: Okay, but this is legitimately in the research. Yeah, mine was justified.
Speaker B: Mine was not. I'm just being annoying, and I'm so sorry.
Speaker A: Yeah, annoying, affectionate, same difference.
Speaker B: Yeah. We're friends, right? Tom.
Speaker A: If you would, um, like to affirm your friendship, whether or not you are Tom King, you can reach out to us on Instagram. Please let us know. Are you our friend? Are you just a fan? Are you just a listener?
Speaker B: Please.
Speaker A: This podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker B: And that's where all of these photos will be as well. And if you have any other theories about Amelia Earhart, if you also know a Tom King, maybe you've been on the submarine. I was wrong. He was on the ship that the submarine went from. That makes more sense because he was a kid that Tony was on. If you've ever get into a National Geographic, um, Khole, let us know. We want to know these things. We want to know all your spooky stories, too. We want to be able to do another mailbag. And right now, we have maybe, like, three stories, but we want more. And we love to make it a Ruth Jordan and Haley Centric episode, but we also acknowledge that we probably need more friends. So please let us read those. Let us know. Yes.
Speaker A: And if you have episode suggestions, please let us know. Obviously, we are listening, and we will check it out.
Speaker B: Seriously. And you can send those to our email at Uh, thank you for listening, friends. Thank you for telling us. Shannon. This was so good. This is so, so good.
Speaker A: You're welcome. And remember this podcast.
Speaker B: I had to do it so quietly.
Speaker A: I don't think that worked. Do we want to do Just One of us doing it?
Speaker B: No, it worked because you're recording on yours and I'm recording on mine. Alright.
Speaker A: So it's your problem to line it up.
Speaker B: Yes, ma'am. Okay, bye.
Speaker A: Okay, bye.

Ep. 21: Jean-Paul Joe Schmoe: Amelia Earhart

This week Shannon scares Emma with planes and gigantic crabs in retaliation for all the times Emma has made her cry to tell the incredible story of Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan, who disappeared in the Pacific in the 30s. Were they stranded and eventually eaten by crabs? (ew. no thank you.) Were they captured? Sucked up into space? Come listen to our theories and all of our shoutouts to Tom King, archeologist extraordinare!

Speaker A: Hello.
Speaker B: Hello.
Speaker A: I'm Emma.
Speaker B: I'm Shannon, and welcome to this podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker A: I try not to give myself the pause.
Speaker B: I felt it, but it was shorter. Was like, what? But I didn't.
Speaker A: Yeah, well, thank you for not jumping in. I would have let you anyway.
Speaker B: It's true. But, uh, I'm okay. I'm over here observing.
Speaker A: Observing?
Speaker B: Yes. Like you're doing double Dutch, and I'm like, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to watch you, though.
Speaker A: Did you ever have the jump rope competition at school? Like a school sanctioned event?
Speaker B: I don't know if it was.
Speaker A: I just remember distinctly in, like, maybe 7th grade, there was, like a jump rope competition, and there were people from other schools who came to our gym to show us how they were doing it or whatever. And I don't know. This is a weird recovered memory.
Speaker B: I don't have anything to offer you, but I will say thank you to you because our audience can now mark off childhood story on their bingo card. If you haven't downloaded it yet, you should go to our Instagram. If this podcast doesn't exist, check our link in bio and you can get a lovely little bingo card to play along. We hope you have a cup of something warm and comforting. Or maybe you're listening to this at.
Speaker A: Night and you're having a little nightcap.
Speaker B: Or just drink some water. Everybody drink water.
Speaker A: It's important. Or you're a Rhode Islander and you're having iced coffee in the middle of winter, uh, high.
Speaker B: In a fancy mug. Uh I love him. I do, too.
Speaker A: Jane Boston talk. All right. Do you want to guess what today is?
Speaker B: I only know it's encrypted.
Speaker A: Let's start with maybe because this is what I wrote in my notes.
Speaker B: Batman.
Speaker A: But make encrypted.
Speaker B: Mothman. My brain went bat pig, but that's not a thing. Clearly, I'm a Marvel fan. Not a DC fan.
Speaker A: Back pig.
Speaker B: I think what my brain did. Do you remember when the Simpsons movie was coming out?
Speaker A: Spider pigs.
Speaker B: I don't know. Tell me about Mothman.
Speaker A: I want to tell you about that pig, but I can't.
Speaker B: Nobody can. He's that good. Oh, no. I broke Emma guys and completely derailed me. I'm sorry. We can't even blame it on the fact that it's early or late in the day. No, moderate 04:00.
Speaker A: Well, it's almost five now.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: We did really well today. That we're in, like, the middle of the day. All right, so mothman. Yes, we are talking about Mothman. So, on a chilly night in November 119,060 Googles, two couples out driving in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, were surprised to find a gigantic creature described as a man with wings that dove at their car and chased them down the road. Was this a large bird on a rampage or a creature born of radioactivity?
Speaker B: Oh.
Speaker A: So let's talk about the inciting incident. So tuesday, November 15, 1966. Steven Millette, Roger Scarberry, and their wives were driving around midnight down the road in an area of Point Pleasant referred to as the TNT area because there is a power plant. Okay. Um, they're all driving in Rogers, uh, Chevy. They were passing the old power plant near the National Guard armory buildings when they all saw what looked like a man standing in their car headlights. He just suddenly appeared. The man, however, had wings. It moved toward their car and chased them down the road, flying behind them as they tried to speed away. They all said it had red eyes when the car lights caught its face, and it flew about 100 miles an hour, eventually overtaking the car and flying past them. They made it to downtown Point Pleasant, but then they went back to see if it was still there.
Speaker B: Um, you're asking for bad things.
Speaker A: I think in their minds, what they were doing is like, is that really what we just saw is midnight. What happened? Let's just go back and see. Sure, whatever.
Speaker B: I'm not doing that. This never happens to us. I'm like, no, absolutely not. If you want to go back, I'll be like, Emma, get out of the car. I will call Jimmy and inform him that you are making a dumb decision.
Speaker A: And that he can find your dead body in that field right there.
Speaker B: Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker A: Basically. So they turned around and the creature was still there, as if it was waiting for them. That's what they said.
Speaker B: Can I tell you, on first blush, this is giving me intense, ScoobyDoo villain vibes.
Speaker A: I like that. Yes, I like that a lot. I love Scuba Do. Just side note, I love Scuba. Do.
Speaker B: The record, so shall note.
Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. So they found the creature again. He was still standing where they left him, as if he was waiting for them. And then it took off running through a field just at the gate of a farm on Route 62. They heard what sounded like wing flapping and watched the creature rise straight up in the air, quote, like a helicopter. So, uh like, jump.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: When the men and their wives reported this experience the next day, the reporter for the Point Pleasant Register noted that they were, quote, dead serious when they told the story and seemed pale and sleep deprived. The sheriff and police went to the TNT area to look around and see if there was any evidence of the creature during the day, but they found nothing. Well done. Right. The men who had seen it had speculated that maybe the thing was living inside the power plant, possibly in one of the boilers, which I just loved that. They were like, this is real.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: That's where he lives. Yeah, that's it. He's got to live in the power plant. He's got to be from the power plant.
Speaker B: Whenever something odd happens, our brains are quick to point to things we don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand uh, stuff happens in power, comes out great.
Speaker A: Yes. Something radioactive is happening in there, I'm sure. But I don't know.
Speaker B: So that's where ScoobyDoo villain would hide out?
Speaker A: Absolutely. They also told the reporter they were planning to go look for it again that night. Although Scarberry noted he wanted to go during the day, but he wasn't sure about encountering it at night again. Basically, Mollett was like, yeah, we're going to go. We're going to go again tonight. See if we can find it. And Scarbury was like, no.
Speaker B: He's like, can we not also, could we take a nap?
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: I'm very tired.
Speaker A: I'm very tired. So three days after the initial incident on November 18, it was reported in the Williamson Daily News that eight more people had seen the creature. Mollette and Scarbury claim to have seen four in Mason County, the same county as Point Pleasant. In particular, there was a sighting the previous Saturday, which would have been before the TNT area sighting. Kenneth Duncan, a grave digger from Canala County, one county over from Point Pleasant, claimed that while he and four other men were digging, he saw a brown, man shaped thing, quote, buzz past him. So moving very quickly, he saw it for about a minute, both in the sky and in the surrounding trees. And the other four didn't see it.
Speaker B: And was this during the day?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Okay. For some reason, my brain had grave diggers. No, uh, the only grave diggers that dig at night are like, bad ones that are heel bodies. Grave diggers are like people. Normally people. But it would happen during the day. Yeah.
Speaker A: No, it was during the day. He described it, um, as a huge birdlike thing with red reflective eyes and a wingspan of something like 10ft. Another report within the same article was from a man 100 miles north of Point Pleasant who claimed the creature took off with his dog. Newell Partridge, a contractor, was watching television when he said that the television started, quote, acting like a generator. I'm not quite sure what that means, but I read another space that it said that he claimed it was buzzing. So maybe it was just making some funky noise. Also remember, this is 1966. This is only like, maybe 15 years after, probably more like ten. That TVs were really a thing that people had in their homes all that often, so maybe something was up with it. But that's just me being speculative. His German shepherd banned it, began barking up a storm to something that was outside. So Partridge shined a flashlight into the field just beyond his front door, and the light rested on two red eyes. The dog became defensive and went after whatever it was. But Bandit never came back, which is so sad. This incident happened 90 minutes before the TNT area encounter.
Speaker B: So that's a fast moss.
Speaker A: Yes. The Mason County Sheriff, George Johnson, said he wasn't discounting these stories but believed that it was nothing more than a, quote, freak shite poke, kind of large heron. Yeah, they're, uh, just like really tall, long birds. Those are the initial sightings. And these were, uh, just the sightings in the newspaper reports on my initial search. And then I found Mothman Wiki.
Speaker B: Oh, boy. Hold on. Let me buckle in.
Speaker A: Yes, seriously, buckle into that 1965 Chevy. Because Motoman Wiki is so detailed. Someone out there in the universe, probably multiple someone's out there in the universe have taken so much care and time, not just putting this together, but also fact checking.
Speaker B: A lot of it.
Speaker A: Like, there is a great amount of it that is just speculation. No sources whatsoever. But then there's pieces of it that is like, this is from this story, but it doesn't correlate with this that we hear in all of these other things. And this is the first time that this shows up. So it's most likely incorrect, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B: So.
Speaker A: I find it fascinating. It's just so deep. I got so close to getting super deep into it. And I just realized towards the middle of like I was, um, so close to going over the edge. And I realized I couldn't give you all of the information that Mothman Wiki could give. So don't worry, Mothman Wiki, it's in the show notes. Go and search through it for yourself. So much fun. But I'm going to give you some of my favorite sightings from Moffman Wiki. So in the 1970 book Strange Creatures from Time and Space by John Keel, he outlines quite a few other sightings, including one from West Virginia. Woman uh, in. She doesn't necessarily remember what year, but she was driving with her elderly father down Route Two near the Ohio River, which is where Point Pleasant sits. It's right on the edge of the Ohio River. As they passed the chief cornstock hunting grounds park, a man suddenly appeared in front of their car, similar to the first incident. She said the following. So this is just her quote. She said, I slowed. And as we got closer, we could see that it was much larger than a man, a big gray figure. Then a pair of wings unfolded from its back, and they practically filled the whole road. It almost looked like a small airplane. Then it took off, straight up, disappearing, uh, out of sight in seconds. We were both terrified. I stepped on the gas and raced out of there. We talked it over and decided not to tell anybody about it. Who would believe us anyway? Interesting, the correlation between what they saw versus what Mole and Scarborough saw. And, uh, Linda, um, Scarborough, Roger's wife, claimed that she had seen the creature multiple times after their initial encounter, including one night that December when she looked out their bedroom window and saw it sitting on their slanted trailer roof. It's just sitting there with its wings around it like a blanket. And she said, quote, I had figured out that it didn't want to hurt me. End quote.
Speaker B: Well, that's reassuring, right? I guess. How did you figure that out? Besides just wishful thinking, probably.
Speaker A: But she initially wanted to try and communicate with it, eventually deciding against it.
Speaker B: But, like, that would be you.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You'd be like that's fair. He keeps following us. It wants to be our friend.
Speaker A: Maybe it needs something. Maybe it wants to tell us something.
Speaker B: Give him some goldfish. Jimmy and I would be like, Absolutely not.
Speaker A: Well, you would say you don't need another creature to take care of. Like that chipmunk that I desperately want to stick around.
Speaker B: No, uh, I love that chipmunk.
Speaker A: He's cute. All right. In The Monk following their initial sighting, the scarberries had multiple moments of what seemed like poltergeist activity. Strange noises in the house that sounded like a sped up record, lights flickering on and off, and the heavy scent of cigar smoke. One evening, around midnight, linda, her aunt, and her infant daughter were all sleeping in Linda's room. Linda woke up and saw the shadowy outline of a man standing in the room. The kitchen light illuminated him enough to see. She said he had on a black and white checkered shirt, black pants, and that his black hair was in a crew cut. He stared at her with his dark eyes on the blinking. Linda said she could not move, that she was almost numb, which sounds like sleep paralysis a little bit. The man took out a cigarette from his shirt pocket and lit it. The light reflecting off of the crucifix that hung over the child's bed, it caught his eye, and both he and Linda turned to look. So she's not in sleep paralysis. She can move.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: When she turned back, he was gone. Because, of course, when Linda's aunt later woke up, she said she had dreamed the same thing in that same room. The doors of the house were still locked, and there was no sign of an intruder ever coming in. So weird poltergeisty activity. Potentially. Men in black stuff going on. If you have any desire to read through the rabbit hole of doom that is The Mothman wiki. The link is in the show notes, please do it. You should do it, too. But these poltergeist and ghost activities are not necessarily Mothman himself, it seems. But he does tend to be the harbinger of bad tidings or a premonition of disaster and maybe allow some things to linger around.
Speaker B: What?
Speaker A: So, um, let's talk about the Silver Bridge collapse, okay? Do you need to buckle in further?
Speaker B: No, I want, um, to be able to exit the vehicle when my car falls in the water.
Speaker A: Fair enough. So, on December 15, 1967, a year after the first reported sightings of the Mothman, the bridge over the Ohio River that connected to Point Pleasant, West Virginia, with Gallipolis, Ohio collapsed at around 05:00 p.m.. Around rush hour, sending 64 people in their cars into the freezing river. 46 died in the disaster.
Speaker B: Oh, no.
Speaker A: Insane amount of people. Recovery of the vehicles and their passengers lasted months.
Speaker B: Can I interject?
Speaker A: Of course.
Speaker B: I saw a tick talk, uh, from a nine one, uh, one operator who was sharing some tips. If you ever are going to go into the water in your car, you should try and roll down the window as soon as possible. You should unseat belt yourself. You won't be able to open the door until, uh, the pressure equalizes. And do not climb to the back of the car, because that's how you get it. Yeah. You think that's where you want to go because that's where the air pocket is, because the front of your car sinks first because of the engine. But don't do that because you won't make it. Just a little morbid safety for you.
Speaker A: No, that's very much appreciated. Thank you.
Speaker B: You got it.
Speaker A: The reason that the almost 40 year old bridge collapsed was a three millimeter crack in one of the eyebars that held it up over the river. Oh. 3 mm. Isn't that insane?
Speaker B: And that's why neither you nor I is an engineer. That is too much.
Speaker A: There's so much pressure. A similar bridge a county over, was right after this collapse. Um, they shut down in order to do better checks of it, and eventually it was determined that it would have collapsed fairly soon, too. And so they destroyed it and built another one up to code.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: That's at least good.
Speaker B: Small silver lining.
Speaker A: Yeah. So there were reports, however, from those who survived the collapse or watched the horrific event that moments before Mothman was seen on the bridge. Was he a warning to those who would cross, or was he the cause of the collapse? No clue, just speculation. All of the actual reports are verified. I saw it.
Speaker B: What does he want?
Speaker A: It's a good question. I have no clue. But here's the bridge, just to show you. Obviously, there's a new bridge in its place. It's called the Silver Memorial, um, Bridge, or something along those lines. So some other disasters where a mothman appears and they're all around the world. So either Mothman or a mothman like creature has been spotted.
Speaker B: He's got cousins just like big mhm Bird. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's what I just was thinking. If you don't know what we're talking about, you should go look up Big Bird. Or, like, um, Stephanie Street on Twitter, big Bird was calling out all, um, his cousins from around the world. I love the one that's like, he looks scary and he's actually nice.
Speaker A: All right, so we're going to talk about the Chernobyl explosion.
Speaker B: Oh, what? Took a turn?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So.
Speaker A: On April 26. 1986. The Chernobyl nuclear plant in the Soviet Union had an explosion during a routine systems test of a reactor the nearby town of Pripyat was the base for the first responders. But it soon also had too much radioactivity for safe occupation and was abandoned during the time that it was used. However. Residents claimed that there was an unusual black creature that flew over them. Large and imposing. And plant workers had seen the same blackbird of Chernobyl in the days leading up to the disaster. There have also been sightings of the blackbird of Chernobyl after the fact, after Pripyat was abandoned. After Chernobyl uh, was abandoned, you will see a huge black thing in the sky just hovering above Chernobyl. He also appeared on 911. So there were reports on September 11, 2001, during the horrific attack on Twin Towers in New York City, um, that a black humanoid figure in flight was seen, with some claiming that they could make out his face, red eyes, and all through the smoke and debris. There are also claims that up to five days before the attack, uh, there was a cranelike creature flying in the vicinity of the towers, which is not normal for New York. Makes another appearance with another bridge. On August 1, 2007, in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the I 35 West Bridge collapsed, killing 13 and injuring 145 up to a month before. People claim to have seen a dark manlike figure with wings appearing near the bridge, just like the other one, just kind of appearing. No one's really catching him doing anything. It's just showing up. And lastly, on August 10 of 2009, residents of Chihuahua, Mexico, started to notice a creature described as, quote, tall and hairy, with expansive wings and bloodshot eyes. A student claimed that he had been chased for 15 minutes by the creature. These sightings coincided with a rise in swine flu cases in the area. This is not necessarily a singular disaster like the others were, but it's kind of spooky and it's timing in the idea that right after he appears and then disappears, the swine food cases rose. In more recent years, Mothman has made appearances that still can't quite be explained. So in November of 2016, a man was driving along State Route Two when he saw something jumping from tree to tree. He pulled over and grabbed his phone to take some pictures as it flew from one tree to the next. He wouldn't disclose his name to the media, but adamantly insisted that the photos hadn't been retouched or doctored. So these are the photos that he took? Yeah.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: Mothman has also been seen in Chicago and for a while now, starting in 2011, sightings of a dark, slender flying figure have surfaced on and off. And in 2017, the rate of the sightings increased heavily. Don't know why. 2017 was the year of the Mothman, but apparently it was. In total, there were 55 sightings of a flying humanoid creature in the city of Chicago in 2017.
Speaker B: Can I put out a request for a year of the Mothman?
Speaker A: Merch like a Chinese zodiac kind of situation.
Speaker B: I don't, uh, know. I'm just picturing, like, 2017, year of the month. I don't know, almost like what's the one movie, 2001, uh, where it's like the big graphics that have the shadow on the font. I don't know what I mean. But the image in your mind is very clear. That's my vote for putting on the merch this episode.
Speaker A: Fair enough.
Speaker B: Because we've been slacking instantly, I think.
Speaker A: Because we think we're funny.
Speaker B: No, the end of story. We are funny.
Speaker A: Yes, you're right. All right, so one set sighting was on a summer night in 2017 when security officer John Amitrono went outside and saw something unusual in the sky. He said, again, another chunk of, quote quote, I saw a plane flying, but also something moving really awkwardly under it. It didn't look like a bat so much as the illustrations of pterodactyls look like with the slenderness of its head and its winged shape. I know what birds look like and what bats look like. This thing didn't have any feathers or fur, and it didn't fly like anything I've ever seen. It flew in a strange, swooping motion, undulating up and down, uh, kind of like a little mhm weight. John was mad mhm that he had left his phone charging inside the club he was working at, texting his girlfriend and friends about what he had seen, and lamenting that he hadn't had the chance to take a picture. Fair enough. Most of the sightings were of the thing in flight, though some claim to see it sitting on fence posts or on top of buildings, just staring. A few claim to have been swooped down on by the creature, but no one was able to take a photo of it because it all happened pretty fast. Most recently, a postal service worker claimed to have seen the creature at the Chicago O'Hare Airport one night on her way home from work in September of 2020. So this is not all that long ago at all. Around 11:00 p.m.. She was walking to her car to go home from her shift at the sorting facility when she saw something standing at the end of the parking lot. She at first thought it was a large person in a long coat, but when she went to unlock her car and her car lights came on, the light caused the person standing about 20ft from the headlights to turn and look directly at her. She saw that this was not a person, but a red eyed, seven foot tall creature with wings folded around it, which spread as it turned to look at her.
Speaker B: Terrifying.
Speaker A: Honestly, I don't think I'd be tall. Shannon just did her very best Mothman impression, and it was glorious.
Speaker B: Alas, I'm not 7ft tall, nor do my eyes glow red, but it was brilliant. Do you think there are Mothman cos players out there?
Speaker A: Absolutely.
Speaker B: Are they on the Wiki?
Speaker A: If they are. I didn't see them, but we can definitely find them.
Speaker B: Oh, boy.
Speaker A: So it turned to look at, uh, her, and then it came closer within any feet of her clicking and chirping extremely fast before taking off into the sky. Sorry, I'm trying to get through this very quickly before you start.
Speaker B: I mean, it's still light outside, so it's okay.
Speaker A: Yeah, of course. She screamed and drove into her car, locking her doors and turning on all of the lights in her car. Like, she turned on all of the cabin lights and all of her headlights and everything.
Speaker B: That's going to save you. Ten foot wingspan, giant mouse.
Speaker A: She shot through the parking lot and down the road until she got home. When she relayed all of this to her husband, who was also a postal employee of the same facility, he told her of the multiple sightings that others had had in the same area. Like, if you were my husband, she's not telling me this stuff.
Speaker B: She goes home, she's like, Jen, you'll never believe what happened. And he's like, oh, yeah, we see him. He's around. What? You didn't tell me what? I missed that on the orientation tour.
Speaker A: And there over on your right will be Mr. Mothman.
Speaker B: Don't worry, don't make eye contact, but it's fine. Don't make any seven movements. Don't put out a large lantern. He'll get distracted.
Speaker A: When asked if she had seen where it had gone, she said, I didn't care to stick around and find out.
Speaker B: Correct. Good answer. Honestly.
Speaker A: Overall, the attempts to identify what this creature in Chicago was has been futile. Although NPR put together a short nine minute feature on these Chicago sightings, encouraging people to investigate at their own risk. At the end of the article, they wrote and I'm reading this whole disclaimer because just excellent writing disclaimer we are not responsible for any laws that are broken in the pursuit of Mothman, nor are we responsible for the factualness of any of the information contained herein. The following information should not be used as an excuse to trespass on private property or ensnare your hairier relatives with a comically large butterfly net.
Speaker B: Somebody in the legal department was having a fun day. I just appreciated it.
Speaker A: All right, so, uh, is Mothman really a cryptid creature or is he something else? So following Scarborough and Mollett's claims of the Mothman around the power plant as well as the sighting of him near Chernobyl, some have speculated that the creature is the result of radioactivity messing with either a human or a bird or possibly boast to create a hybrid with a predator's drive. So creepy. Radioactive baby with wings. Most mhm, however, tend to try and debunk the sightings with the claim that Mothman is in fact a bird. Well, Mason County Sheriff George Johnson thought that it was simply a, quote, freak shite poke, which every time I see it, I want to say something else. Terrorizing west virginians is a good guess. The more likely culprit is the Sandhill crane, though native to northern North America. So like the lower middle of Canada through Nebraska here in the States, the color and the signature red eyes and forehead may explain the sightings of the alleged mothman. The thought is that the bird lost its way during a migration and was trying to make the best of the situation in the winter months. So here is our sand hill crane. He's normal looking bird, but he's got a red forehead and a gray body.
Speaker B: But he's not 7ft tall.
Speaker A: No, that is an issue. As far as size goes, this is where it gets a little sketchy. So their wingspan can be up to 7ft long, but they usually stand about 3ft in height. They're not all that big. They're big, right? But they're not enormous.
Speaker B: Well, and even if the victims is not the right word, but the witnesses there you go. Are like, me, I'm very bad with spatial, uh, sort of things. I can't look at something and be like, oh, yeah, that's about like four and a half feet tall. I use references of other, like, oh, that person is taller than your average refrigerator. You know what I mean?
Speaker A: Tom King. That's for you.
Speaker B: Refrigerator. Um, yeah, he is too high up there. But anyway, even if they were, like me, bad with spatial comparisons and you're in a stressful moment, I feel like it's a large jump to be like, the thing was actually 3ft tall and you said seven. You know what I mean? I feel like that's too much of a disparity to be like, oh, it's just stress and they kind of miscalculate it.
Speaker A: Yeah. Or like distance and perspective or whatever.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So the way that these cranes fly as, um, well, doesn't seem to be close to the claims of the mothman in flight. So the claims have those long necks outstretched with their long bill leading the way. So it looks nothing like a head on shoulders that could resemble a man in the sky. So, with particular sightings, there seem to be a few holes in the alleged encounters for both the Silver Bridge and the I 35 west collapses. There are no solid reasons to believe it was mothman rather than a large bird. No one was close enough to make out any identifying features, so the speculation just became whipped into a frenzy of cryptid hope. The same goes for the Chicago sightings, as there was no mention of the red eyes in any of the sightings in the case, uh, of the 2016 sighting and pictures. Skeptics have proposed that the photo is not of mothman, but of an owl with snake snack, which, trailing behind the bird, creates the illusion of legs in the twilight. So I want you to look at this again.
Speaker B: A snake's head.
Speaker A: A snake snack. Look at that again and try and break it up into. Owl with a snake in its town.
Speaker B: That's a thick snake. Right.
Speaker A: But you can kind of see where they're going with it, right?
Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. In the two photos. Uh, I definitely see that. Looks like an owl. Yeah, but the one with the legs, quote, unquote, it's a thick snake. It's a thick snake. Someone's pet boa constrictor got snapped from an alleyway. Who's keeping their bow constrictor in an alley? Well, he got out.
Speaker A: Oh, I see.
Speaker B: Snakes could figure out how to open doors.
Speaker A: No, it freaks me out. I love snakes, but I would never want a large one. I would want can you tell, you little baby garden snakes. I can just smell you. Shannon is not approved.
Speaker B: Only if you put him in cute little hats.
Speaker A: I absolutely will.
Speaker B: Okay. And he's not in the guest room?
Speaker A: No, he won't be in your room. Don't worry.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: As far as Chernobyl claims go, these didn't appear until after, uh, the 2002 movie the Mothman Prophecies, starring Richard Gere and Laura Linney. And based on the book of the same name by John Keel. The movie mentions this or I can't continue. She is losing her mind.
Speaker B: Sorry. Richard Gear. Yes.
Speaker A: He plays reporting.
Speaker B: He gave them the old razzled dazzle. All right. Okay. This movie came out, they were in it. What happened next?
Speaker A: So this movie mentions this blackbird of Chernobyl in its legend of the cryptid. And so most of these claims can be determined false because no one has ever mentioned that before this movie. So it's possible that people brought it into their own folklore of Mothman and its claims.
Speaker B: Can I just say, Chernobyl, while it was not a middle school fascination, it falls in the same category.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: When you see the drone footage flying through the town and through the factory, because obviously people can't really go, but they can fly the drone, I'm like, terrifying fascinating. Absolutely. To know everything.
Speaker A: Any kind of abandoned space that still has the stuff in it, like it was just like people up and left. Yeah. I think it's in North Carolina. It's the, um, wizard of Oz amusement park. And it's completely overrun with all of the vegetation and everything. But there's still a yellow brick road, and I think you can now reserve to go to it and wander through it. And I really want to do it. I would find that fascinating.
Speaker B: If we go during the daytime, I'm down.
Speaker A: Okay. Yes. All right.
Speaker B: We'll do that postcoded road trip.
Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. We're going to have to write down a lot of stuff for our postcoded road trip.
Speaker B: Well, some of them may not be through the road. That take a very long fairy to the world care museum.
Speaker A: That's true in popular culture as well as a movie starring Mothman, he's become somewhat of a celebrity in point, um, pleasant.
Speaker B: Um, makes sense.
Speaker A: Ever since deciding in 1000 966, the legend of the creature persisted throughout the town, returning in full force when the man captured those pictures in 2016. But by then, the town already had its antihero solidified. In 2002, the annual Mothman Festival began unveiling the twelve foot statue of their namesake in the center of town. A year later, in 2005, the Mockman Museum and Research Center opened across from the statue, and nearly everything in the town revolves around their claim to fame and research center. I know. I love it. I love that so much. So the festival is held every third weekend in September excepting 2020, when they had to cancel due to covid 19. There's also a camera fixed on the statue so you can watch it on a live, uh, feed whenever you want, which I don't know why you would, but so here's the statue. Isn't it weird? Those eyes are reflective, too, so that anytime you take a flash photo, it reflects or if it's at night and you shine a light on it, it reflects.
Speaker B: He and the blue horse from Denver. We're in a club together. His wings are very pretty in the statue.
Speaker A: He seems to have cornrows as hair. And he also has that's no gender whatsoever, which I appreciate because we don't.
Speaker B: Know clue not a person that sounds like a Pokemon.
Speaker A: Okay, well, that needs to be on our all right.
Speaker B: They have speakers, and festival also implies their snacks. So I'm down.
Speaker A: There are pie eating contests. There are cookies in the shape of Mothman as well as having, uh, Mothman on them. There used to be I don't think it's still around, but there used to be the Mothman Diner. It's no longer around because the owner passed away. Um, but she was so deep into all this Mothman stuff, like she was one of the founders of the Hipster.
Speaker B: 20 somethings of Mount Pleasant. Why did you not work to save the diner?
Speaker A: Right, but I really want to go. It's basically just a ton of food and live bands and talking about Mothman. People dressed up as Mothman gathering around get pictures with so definitely Go. Though he is often placed in conjunction with men in Black, UFOs and other supernatural sightings or beings, mothman seems to hold his own, thanks to his hometown. Also, side note because this is incredible, in June of 2020, a petition was started to replace all Confederate statues with ones of Mothman. To date, the petition has over 20 signatures. Isn't that incredible?
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: I want that so badly.
Speaker B: That's up there with I forgot what year it was. But there was, um, definitely a whitehouse dot gov petition for the US. Government to build a Death Star. Yes, I remember that from Star Wars. And they got enough signatures that they.
Speaker A: Had to acknowledge it.
Speaker B: They had to release an official statement that was like, we have received your petition. We can't for national security reasons or whatever. Uh, somebody was having a good day in that office, too. I'm sorry. Can't believe this is my job today.
Speaker A: Yes, so if you'd like to sign that. That petition is also in our show notes. It's still ongoing. All right, so here's my opinion on Mothman. Though it might be possible that it might be a sandhill crane or a large owl wreaking havoc, it does not explain all of it. And there might be a more likely culprit on the loose. And my vote is a shoebill stork. Though native to Africa, this bird seems to carry all of the characteristics of the mothman, kind of including the eyes, because they're really big and they're really freaky looking. So these birds are about four and a half feet on average tall, so not that much taller than a sandhill crane, but they have really large features and very muscular looking legs, which is terrifying. When they fly, their wingspan reaches up to eight and a half, um, feet, and they fly with their necks retracted, uh, meaning it ends up looking more like the head of a human than a bird. And silhouette. They are also a bird of prey who dive for their meals, which include very large snakes. And I did not include this photo, but there is a photo of this shoebill store with an actual anaconda in its, uh, mouth. So this is what it looks like. True dinosaur. It's a dinosaur. It's basically a pterodactyl.
Speaker B: Is that my cousin? Look at those calves.
Speaker A: I know, right? Absolutely terrifying. So the main issues with this include its eyes aren't strikingly red. It lives in Africa, and the sound it makes is not a clicking or a clattering or anything that anyone's ever described. It actually moves like a cow.
Speaker B: I'm sorry, what?
Speaker A: It's just like a low rumble. It just goes.
Speaker B: Terrifying. It's like a small airplane with really thick legs coming at you.
Speaker A: Yeah, but I like the idea of a prehistoric looking thing just having a grand old time somewhere it doesn't belong, scaring the bejesus out of everybody.
Speaker B: Stop having exotic pets.
Speaker A: Seriously.
Speaker B: That's when stuff like this happens. No, absolutely.
Speaker A: I agree with that statement. Don't have exotic pets. Wild animals are wild. Lastly, he was named Mothman from the popular TV series at the time, Batman, because one of the comic book villains was the Killer Moth, and they just complained. It made it mock.
Speaker B: Man, comics are so funny, man.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: The heroes that didn't make the cut to the final movies, they were like.
Speaker A: I am the Killer Mock. No, I'm sorry. We can't continue.
Speaker B: We just can't.
Speaker A: Sorry. Um, yeah. Can't continue. So I kind of blew through that. So I apologize. This is a shorter episode than usual, but so good. I needed to get all of this out because this was honestly the most fun to dream.
Speaker B: I feel like we were due for a little light hearted oh, yeah.
Speaker A: Situation.
Speaker B: The last couple were maybe a little dirt.
Speaker A: I want to go there.
Speaker B: That's pretty close.
Speaker A: It really is close.
Speaker B: We could road trip. Let's see. I mean, nothing's open right now, but that's true. Also, it's cold right now, so we wouldn't want to but maybe when it's a little warmer, we could do an outdoor walk around situation.
Speaker A: I would love that. I just really want to go and see the map I'm looking up to see how far we plus it is.
Speaker B: For us, which is surprising that I.
Speaker A: Didn'T do this earlier.
Speaker B: That's okay. Uh, but, yeah, we should make a list. We got the World Carrot Museum and the Vine House over in the UK. I want to go to that museum in Bogota to look at all.
Speaker A: Absolutely. Uh, so it's about 5 hours and 58 minutes.
Speaker B: Oh, really? Farthest edge of what yeah, that's true. But, hey, we could get through Hamilton at least twice.
Speaker A: We could also potentially stop in Pittsburgh and then go back down. I mean, it's not all that close. It'd probably add an extra hour and a half, 2 hours to go.
Speaker B: But if we're making a road trip, we might as well yeah. Road trip it out. For those of you who may not be aware, emma and I follow a very strict car trip road trip protocol.
Speaker A: Yes, we do.
Speaker B: When we listen to, uh, musicals, in particular, Hamilton. What is the subtitle of Hamilton? Like an American musical? We have certain roles that are our primary roles and then secondary ones. So if two of my characters are in a song together, and I don't feel like trying to sing both of them, emma will step in.
Speaker A: Yes, I will.
Speaker B: But if my secondary character is alone in a song, I would sing it. And we're a little intense. Emma has a note, um, on her phone, um, very particular. That's from 2016 or 17, isn't it?
Speaker A: Yeah, because it was from our first road trip down to Lynchburg after our graduation. Uh, yeah.
Speaker B: So, uh, yeah, that's just a little fun fact about us. If you're in a car with us and we're listening to a musical, unless it's an ensemble number, don't try to sing every part.
Speaker A: Sincerely, do not try to sing every part. It makes me so angry. There are duets for a reason. There are different voices for a reason. Just sing the part that you are supposed to sing. If it is a duet.
Speaker B: This feels very pointed.
Speaker A: I'm sorry. There was a moment when we were going back from one of the shows that we were in, and I wasn't driving you. You were in your own car. But I was driving someone else back, and they did that, and it really bothered me. You know who this is?
Speaker B: This is not the call out episode. We already did that.
Speaker A: I'm not calling them out, but they did that, and it was as if they were trying, um, to impress me somehow, and it just made me angrier because in my mind. I was like, this is the way that we bond. This is the way that we will become good friends, is that I have my part, you have your part, and then we harmonize on the parts that we match. And then we were like, oh, we work so well together. Don't sing every part.
Speaker B: Right? It's like, there's a reason that I'm dropping out every other line.
Speaker A: Right. I'm not just choosing it's not like.
Speaker B: I don't forgot the words. No. Well, my friends, this is so fun. Emma a little creepy. I know, but I didn't cry.
Speaker A: She did ask me. She did text me and say, is this one creepy this week? And I said no.
Speaker B: I was like, what's the vibe?
Speaker A: That's what it was. I said it was goofy and, like, cryptid related, but I didn't remember how much doom and gloom there was in the beginning, and I'm so sorry.
Speaker B: It's okay.
Speaker A: It just seems to be the trend of mine that they end up being doom and gloomy.
Speaker B: I turned out to be very, like, national charity, national treasure in the name Jonesy eldorado. Anyway, thank you for listening, friends. You can, um, send us an email with your road trip specifications. What songs? How do you break down the singing? Do you sing at all? Are you a podcast person? Are you listening to us in a car right now? What are you oh, my gosh. How meta. Also, what length of a journey qualifies as a road trip?
Speaker A: Because I feel like there's a.
Speaker B: Get out of my, uh, brain. I'm just going to say that you know what I mean. Like, when you and I give a little ride, like us, when we go to get food in 30 minutes, that's not a road trip. Even though we might sing, but it's.
Speaker A: Not a road trip. Anyway, I understand.
Speaker B: Have you gone to visit the mothman statue?
Speaker A: If you have? Like, our friend Haley actually went to Summerton Beach, uh, where the tummy shoot case was started, and yet they won't send me the photo for good reason.
Speaker B: For good reason. But I'm like, now I want to.
Speaker A: See have you been there?
Speaker B: Have you been to push it? Yeah. Here's me being a romantic, but also a scenic get photos with you on.
Speaker A: A trip, like, just, uh, by yourself.
Speaker B: And with any friends, significant others that you might be with, because then you will have a photo of you experiencing that alone if the need arises.
Speaker A: You don't need to cut anybody out of your photos.
Speaker B: Look, I feel like we've all been there.
Speaker A: Yes, we've all been there.
Speaker B: But anyway, if you have related photos to any episode, stories, suggestions, you can email us. This podcast doesn't We can't wait to hear from you.
Speaker A: Please. We love hearing from you. Uh, guys, and I will say we are not reading them just yet. We're waiting to have enough episode, and then we're going to be surprised by your wonderful pros and your amazing stories. Um, so send us your best.
Speaker B: It's going to be a wild ride because we don't pre read anymore.
Speaker A: No pronunciations are going to suck, but that's okay.
Speaker B: Well, they kind of do it already, but that's just me. All right. Well, Emma.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Thank you for sharing. You're welcome.
Speaker A: Thank you for listening, friends.
Speaker B: Thank you for listening.
Speaker A: And remember this, um, podcast.
Speaker B: You came at me like a mouse man in the night. You're welcome. Goodnight. Bye. We love you. Bye. Um.

Ep. 20: Batpig: The Mothman

A creature born of radioactivity scared the bejesus out of two couples in 1966 on a dark road at midnight. Or was it a gigantic bird? Or Batpig? More likely it was the antihero of Point Pleasant: Mothman! Come listen to Emma tell Shannon about the feathered man bird and all of his "cousins" around the world.

Speaker A: Hello.
Speaker B: Hi.
Speaker A: I'm Shannon.
Speaker B: I'm Emma.
Speaker A: And this is this podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker B: I know you're not, but it feels like you're screaming.
Speaker A: I'm doing it. Not for the Graham. For the fans.
Speaker B: For Zach, Haley, and Ruth.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And Jesse. Oh, that's true. Yeah. And Jesse. And Jordan.
Speaker A: And Jordan.
Speaker B: I like that. We can just name all of our todd.
Speaker A: Don't forget Todd.
Speaker B: No, never forget todd.
Speaker A: Um, and possibly our parents. I know both of my parents have listened to at least an episode. Same once, my mom said, Good job on The Denver One. Yeah. That being said, if you want to share this podcast with a friend, we would love that.
Speaker B: And we'll learn their name as best we can. Yeah.
Speaker A: They can join the Shout Out list.
Speaker B: The fan club.
Speaker A: The fan club.
Speaker B: I love it. What would our fans be called?
Speaker A: Even I was thinking about this because I wrote an abbreviation in my notes for this podcast doesn't exist. It was fan adjacent, but I was like, yeah. Do we have an acronym or an initialism? But Tpde they all sound the same.
Speaker B: They're all the E letter. I don't know. It'll happen eventually. Someone else will come up with it. We won't have to worry about it.
Speaker A: I think most organically fan groups, it's better when they name themselves.
Speaker B: Also, I don't want to think about it.
Speaker A: You're dealing with a lot. I think that would fall under my purview of marketing, but that's all right. This isn't our real job.
Speaker B: No, but it's our fun job.
Speaker A: Uh, it's true. Someday it is a job.
Speaker B: Basically, the amount of work that's what I was thinking about last night while I was doing the rest of my notes. The amount of work that we both put into this at this point. It's like a job.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: It's a part time job.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: I was going to say, thank goodness. Most jobs I don't, but maybe I don't know what I'm trying to say. For this job, I do most of my work between the hours of 10:00 P.m. And 02:00 A.m., and I'm glad none of my other jobs are like that.
Speaker B: Yeah, that would suck.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker B: But as far as this job goes, the person that you have to report to is me, so don't worry about it.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: So, what are you reporting to me today?
Speaker A: You know me. I always have a little gimmick at the end.
Speaker B: You do? I'm very excited.
Speaker A: Emma? Yes? I have a short questionnaire for you.
Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Is it multiple choice, or is it true or false?
Speaker A: Please answer yes or no. Okay.
Speaker B: So true or false one.
Speaker A: Do you like historical mysteries? Yes. Do you enjoy nostalgia?
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Um hope you answered yes to both, because both are good.
Speaker B: Is this eldorado? It is. Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A: I'm so happy you got the joke. I'm so pleased.
Speaker B: Emma is shaking. She has cysts of glory. The road to Eldorado is such a good movie.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: Don't worry. We'll get into it. Yes.
Speaker B: No, I know.
Speaker A: But, Emma, aside from the classic animated DreamWorks film The Road to Eldorado from 2000 uh huh. What do you know or remember about the legend of El Dorado?
Speaker B: Land made of gold and conquistadors in Mexico? Yeah. South America.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker B: So not Central America. South America may be correct.
Speaker A: All right. We're going to dive into a little bit of the history and the legend, and then we'll go on from there as we do. All right. So from early on in their exploration and conquest of the quote, I'm going to acknowledge that I'm going to refer to it as the New World for this episode because the history is being told from the point of view of Europeans. We acknowledged that there were obviously native people here first. It wasn't new. It was just new to them.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: From early on in their exploration and conquest of the New World, aka. South America, europeans made note of native people's apparent abundance of gold and silver. They especially took note that the native peoples did not seem to place much value in these materials, which gave the impression that it was very abundant. Because if you have a lot of something, it's not valuable sort of thing in the way of, um you and I both love books. We both own a lot of books. But if there were only 500 books in the world and you owned one, you would really cherish that. But if you owned, like, 400 of the 500, maybe you'd be like, they're.
Speaker UNK: Books.
Speaker B: Does that make sense? It does make sense. And logically makes sense. I'm just thinking now of, like, if there were only 500 books in the.
Speaker UNK: World.
Speaker B: We don't have time now.
Speaker A: That's a list.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: So, um, explorers of the continent of South America, particularly the Spanish, heard rumors of great city states that had accumulated power and wealth on the continent. In 1519, Hernan Cortes captured Emperor Montezuma and sacked, uh, the mighty Aztec Empire, making off with thousands of pounds of gold and silver. Fun fact cortez, the historical figure appears in the animated movie Eldorado.
Speaker B: Yes, he does.
Speaker A: And he's voiced by Jim Cummings, who is most famous for voicing Winnie the Pooh. What?
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: Isn't that funny?
Speaker B: Voice actors are wild. I remember watching I don't know what it was, but it was like a compilation of all of these voice actors basically, um, explaining how they got into voice acting. And for the majority of them, it started off with music. So if you think about how versatile a lot of voice actors voices actually are in the way that they're able to manipulate their voices, it makes a lot of sense that they would also be good singers and interested in the way that things sound and interested. Exactly.
Speaker A: Your soft palette and all that all that fun stuff.
Speaker B: So I remember watching that and being fascinated that they were like, yeah, it's like the most direct link. It's not even really acting. It's more music that they're producing through their voices and voice acting.
Speaker A: Where I'm like, well, that's wild related. Just because it's music and because I'm me, I'm going to talk about it. It's not related to this episode. But actors on The West Wing also say that about Aaron Sorkin's writing because he's notorious for writing these monologues that are super pithy and quick and super duper fast. And you just go but he, um, thinks of it like Duly Hill, I think, on a podcast, is talking about how you have to think of it as music because there's a tempo that he writes with. And if you don't like vibe with his tempo makes sense to me, too. It's hard to memorize Aaron Sorkin monologues.
Speaker B: Dolhill is a musical person.
Speaker A: He's a tap dancer. Honey, we love him.
Speaker B: I love him and his sweet little baby. This is a shout out to Dewleh love Delay Hill.
Speaker A: All right. But anyway, we'll talk more about it. We'll talk more about the animated movie. I just thought it was funny. That's hilarious that Cortez is, like, one of the villains in the movie.
Speaker B: And he's.
Speaker A: Always a while ago, yes. After Francisco Pizzado led an expedition to locate and conquered the Inca empire of Peru in the early 1530s, revealing the wealth of the empire, the legends of native treasure on the continent grew even more because at this point, they're like, well, we've proven it twice. The Aztecs ending Income, they had all this treasure in the schools. Like, obviously, everyone on this continent is rich. It's also possible that Pizzaro and his men may have acted as inspiration for the characters of Miguel and Tullio in the movie because they, too, were initially thought to be gods by the native Income people because they rolled up on.
Speaker B: Uh, a horse looking real pale and looking real pale.
Speaker A: They'd never seen anyone pale white guys before, I guess. So most of these conquistadors were illiterate, passing the story by word of mouth, which only caused the legend to grow more in its grandeur. Um, so the term eldorado itself comes from a tribe called the Moiska, located, uh, high up in the Andes Mountains in what is now Colombia.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker A: And it was not initially a place, but a single man.
Speaker UNK: What?
Speaker A: So El Dorado, or gilded one, is um. The translation from Spanish refers to a ceremony that would be completed whenever the tribe needed a new leader. So this man, who was often the nephew of the previous chief, um, would cover his naked body in sticky SAP and then be covered with gold dust. And then he would be rowed out into the center of Lake Guadavita, surrounded, uh, by the four highest priests, adorned with feathers, gold crowns, and body ornaments. I'm going to show Emma quick little.
Speaker B: Picture of this lake.
Speaker UNK: Wow.
Speaker B: It's like a crater.
Speaker A: Yes, it's very beautiful. It's gorgeous. You can view all of these images on our Instagram at this podcast.
Speaker B: Doesn't exist. We didn't do any of the clubs. Start going through your bingo too, because I have a feeling that there's going to be a few.
Speaker A: Yes, I do give you a couple. Like, I point them out. I don't just throw them in for no reason. But, um, play along. It's lots of fun. Jessie got triple bingo last year. No.
Speaker B: Also, she's been getting bingo almost every episode.
Speaker A: I think maybe now that we've made it feels backwards. But now that we've made the bingo card larger, it's almost easier.
Speaker B: Probably because there's more options.
Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, I don't play.
Speaker B: Uh, so I have no idea.
Speaker A: Yeah, I haven't played in a minute.
Speaker UNK: Either.
Speaker A: I'm out here working.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker A: Got to make this podcast money.
Speaker B: We don't currently earn any money from this podcast.
Speaker A: We don't, but I have to go make money. So I can afford to do this as a part time fun job. That's true. As do I with my nose. Hustle in. Hustle.
Speaker UNK: Hustle.
Speaker A: So anyway, the new chief, he's being rowed out by the priests into the center of the water. While the members of the tribe would stand on the shores playing music and burning fires, dressed in their best finery, the priests would throw offerings of gold and precious jewels into the lake to appease the gods. And then the golden leader would dive in and emerge clean, thus purified with the God's blessing.
Speaker B: I really like that. That image is beautiful. Uh, yeah. Imagine that if you couldn't swim.
Speaker A: Well, I don't think he'd be the leader. That's fair.
Speaker B: You died. They'd be like, well, no, they'd be.
Speaker A: Like, the gods did not approve.
Speaker B: God said.
Speaker A: No. That I wrote. Um, the crowds would cheer their approval. Woo.
Speaker B: Politics.
Speaker A: So apparently this ceremony had fallen out of fashion by the 1630s, after eldorado the man, or the title and his tribe were conquered by another tribe. But it had been around in recent enough history that those damn Europeans heard tell of the legend, which obviously didn't help dissuade them from exploring the continent further. I don't go super into it, but throughout my research, a lot of things were discovered that they were not viewing as treasure, but like cinnamon and chocolate.
Speaker UNK: Chocolate.
Speaker A: All these things that we're taking back to the new World or the old world, and we're very great, um, just is funny. But they were like, it's not shiny, so it's trash. We don't want it. We're like, we want it, but it's not what we really want.
Speaker B: Not just saying no to chocolate.
Speaker A: I mean, yeah, I don't know. Also, please keep in mind that even though it's the wrong country, um, the wrong timeline, I kept picturing Governor Ratcliffe from the pocahontas movie in just the song of like, gold.
Speaker B: I mean, it's mine. It's the, uh same energy. Energy, yeah. Same colonialism uh, same colonial energy. Also, Pocahontas is, like, the least factual movie ever.
Speaker A: Sorry.
Speaker B: Uh, beyond the points.
Speaker A: Yes. Agreed. Though. She was, like, ten. Same colonial energy. Sorry, that just made me laugh.
Speaker B: I'm glad.
Speaker A: But we're not putting it on the.
Speaker B: Merch, and we're not making it no.
Speaker A: All right. So these Europeans had encountered such an abundance of precious metals along the coast that they reasoned that an even greater source of treasure must lie further inland because it had trickled down economics down the river.
Speaker B: Trickled down gold and silver.
Speaker A: Gold and silver and precious jewels. Uh, sometimes. Anyway, in 1545, the Spaniards conquered the plateau that was, and still is, home to the Muiska um, people. Working off their greedy assumption from the Eldorado legend, the Spanish attempted to drain the lake. Lake water visa.
Speaker UNK: Sorry.
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker B: I was like, you just drill a hole into the side of the mountain, uh, portion, and then just hope that it all flows out.
Speaker A: I don't no.
Speaker B: Sorry.
Speaker A: While they recovered several hundred pieces of gold and precious stools, they reasoned that this couldn't possibly be the extent of the treasure. And so the search continued.
Speaker B: Greedy butters. Yes, correct.
Speaker A: So they only were able to, um, partially drain the lake, and they were like, well, the real treasure must be somewhere else and or in the deeper part of the lake that we can't get to.
Speaker B: Why don't you just swim?
Speaker A: Okay, but you can swim to the middle. Gold doesn't just float.
Speaker B: No, I know.
Speaker A: I just die through but if it's I could have looked how deep the lake is, I don't know. But one of the sources, which are in the show notes, emma cleans, uh, them up nice and pretty for you guys. One of the sources was from the, uh, BBC. Did you just throw a gang sign at the microphone? Are you a YouTuber?
Speaker B: What's happening? Yeah, that's me. And for some reason, it was the peace sign. It needed to be thrown at the microphone when no one can see me.
Speaker A: But you, please know that we oscillate between looking at each other, looking at our notes, and looking at you guys via the microphone. So just feel included. Visual bit. Mark it on your bingo.
Speaker B: I just don't know why I felt.
Speaker A: The need to do that. It's just you being around me. I do this and, like, all my pictures on Instagram. I'm like, do you? On my story?
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: Tik Tok is my personality now.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker B: I know.
Speaker A: It's fine. It used in high school, it was Tumblr. In college, it was Tumblr. And now it's just TikTok.
Speaker B: I like that the first two are the same. Well, it was a different type of.
Speaker A: Different sort of anyway. But in the sources, uh, that Emma cleans up for you, one of them is a BBC news article.
Speaker UNK: Tiny.
Speaker A: I think it's a clip from a larger program. But, um, the nice British man is in Colombia, and he goes and he speaks with a descendant of the Moisca, um, people, which is pretty cool. That is awesome that they're still there and carrying on traditions. Not this gold rowing the guy tradition, from what I can understand, but still cool.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker A: But anyway, the greedy Europeans were like, nah, several hundred pieces of gold. That ain't it. The search continues. Expeditions could last anywhere from a few weeks to upwards of three or four years. It really just had to do with your dedication and a bit of luck, because sometimes bad things would happen, and you'd have to leave early. Explorers, they may not have cheese it, so I left. Explorers would sign on to an expedition with their own armor, weapons, and horses. So sort of, uh, obviously different clothing and things, but same energy as, like, Tortuga in The Pirates of the Caribbean. You're just hanging out until someone's like.
Speaker B: Hey, I got a boat. I got a job.
Speaker A: I got an expedition. Here we go. Also, if you had a horse, you could carry more treasure, so you'd get a larger cut whenever you found the treasure. Uh, anywhere from 100 to 700 men would sign up per expedition, which how do you even manage that many people? I don't know.
Speaker B: They would set off I wrote in.
Speaker A: Any old direction, really. Maps from the time show the supposed location of El Dorado shifting over time because an expedition would travel there, and guess what? It wasn't there. So then they put it somewhere else on a map of, like, well, it.
Speaker B: Might be over here. I can imagine them trying to make a map of it and being like, X no. And then most people looking at it and going, that's where the gold is. And, like, it happened over and over.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: That's funny. Some, uh, leaders of the expeditions would apply locals with gifts for information, while others would resort to torture and murder. Yes. Because of the latter, uh, native tribes quickly learned, uh, that the easiest way to deal with these explorers was to give them the old, have you tried my neighbor? The goals you're looking for is maybe over with them because then they move on, which, uh, was very smart on the part of these native peoples because many of these conquistadors were not of nobility, but they, uh, were very violent. They were violent men with nothing to lose and everything to gain. And some of them even had fought in wars back in Europe.
Speaker B: Basically mercenaries.
Speaker A: Yes, exactly. So now we're going to talk briefly about some notable expeditions for the road to Eldorado. Okay, so in 15, um, 36, just get ready to mark your pronunciation bingo card. Because I'm doing my best. I studied German. Keep this in mind.
Speaker B: You've been doing very well with the Spanish, though. Yes, but we'll see how this goes.
Speaker A: Okay, so in 1536, Gonzalo Jimenez de Casada set out from Santa marta with 700 men by so many. By early 1537, they reached the home of the Moistka people, which, um, they swiftly conquered. Cassata's expedition was the one that actually found Eldorado, like the man that but they were greedy and thought that the discovery was only minor, not the, quote unquote real El Dorado, because they didn't really understand that it was more of a title and a ritual. Uh, by this point, the legend, like you said at the beginning, like Golden City, everything's made out of gold. That's what they were looking for. And they found a, um, lake with some gold in it. And they were like, that can't be it. That ain't it, SIS.
Speaker B: That ain't it.
Speaker UNK: Kid.
Speaker A: What's that from? Of course.
Speaker UNK: Musical.
Speaker A: You're welcome, everybody. We're just handing out bingo at this point.
Speaker B: I will say, though, our bingo is geared towards the way that we talk.
Speaker A: Anyway, yeah, that's the point.
Speaker B: We didn't make it hard. Yeah.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker A: So then in 1541, Gonzalo Pizzaro, brother of Francisco Pizarro, the conqueror of the Inca, lead an expedition east from Quito.
Speaker UNK: Quito.
Speaker B: Um, let me see.
Speaker A: Q-U-I-T-O.
Speaker UNK: Yeah. Okay.
Speaker A: After, uh, a few months, he sent his lieutenant, Francisco de ORLANA, in search of supplies oralana, and his men instead found the Amazon River.
Speaker UNK: Whoa.
Speaker A: Which they followed to the Atlantic Ocean, which is another one of those things that's, like, minor in terms of treasure hunting, but was kind of a big deal.
Speaker B: It's a huge deal.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker B: That's hilarious, though. They get to this gigantic river and they're like, dang it, we didn't find anything.
Speaker A: I guess we'll just go down this river then.
Speaker B: And then they get home and report about this river, and all the trainsmen are like, whoa. Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, I am not an outdoors person. I'm an indoor cat.
Speaker B: Yes, you are.
Speaker A: But if I've gathered literally anything from learning about explorers, from reading about adventures, because I love adventure books. Very interesting survival books. Also Mount Everest, but that doesn't relate to this story. If I've learned anything, you find the water and you follow the water, and hopefully maybe you'll survive. The end. Anyway, so we found the Amazon NBD in 1559, pedro de Usua Sure started out leaving an expedition from Peru in starts of the Golden City. Unfortunately, he was soon narrated by Lopez de Aguera.
Speaker B: Sure, I'm just going to let you do it because me asking Can I see it? Every single time is not going.
Speaker UNK: To.
Speaker A: If you understand that reference, it's just text us.
Speaker B: We are probably a friend.
Speaker A: No, we are thinking globally.
Speaker B: Emma.
Speaker A: Sorry. Anyway, but Lopez de Iguara was a soldier from within his own ranks who was called, quote, a paranoid psychotic. So he went nuts. He mutinies, he murders Ursua.
Speaker B: Sure.
Speaker A: See, the actor part of me is like, you're saying it wrong. And the other part of me is like, but you acknowledge, uh, you're going to say it wrong. So just, like, keep on trucking.
Speaker B: You're doing your best, I'm sure. It's fairly close.
Speaker UNK: Anyway.
Speaker A: It can't be worse than my Latin, honestly.
Speaker B: Correct. Your face just fell. What I mean by that is that no, it can't, because it's a different language. It's not your language. I know, but doing very well. You did well with the Latin.
Speaker A: You did well with this.
Speaker B: You can't do any worse.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker B: Thanks, mom.
Speaker A: So anyway, Aguda turned ranks against the leader, and he continued on a reign of torture and terror, declaring their group independent from Spain.
Speaker B: So he became, like, the leader, the expedition leader?
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker B: After Mutining.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: So he killed the leader and some other people and turned the rest of the group against the dead people. And he was, like, your leader now. And then they just went through and we're killing all these natives. He declares them, um, independent from Spain, which means that he ends up getting himself killed by Spanish soldiers.
Speaker B: Someone had to take care of it, obviously.
Speaker A: But there are, like, other books and things specifically about him because he was so vicious. He was, like, a butcher.
Speaker B: I wonder if it really was that he was, like, um, paranoid, psychotic, or if there was something else going on, or if there was some kind of.
Speaker A: Like maybe he got malarious, maybe. I don't know. All right, and then I believe this is our final notable expedition that we're going to talk about sir Walter Raleigh.
Speaker B: Oh, golly. Remember him?
Speaker A: Yeah, of course. Here to Queen Elizabeth. I wearer of rough candidate for possible quote unquote, real Shakespeare stuff. Bingo card. There's a call back to a previous episode. You're welcome. He actually went on two expeditions to search for Eldorado yes.
Speaker B: Which, like, I never yeah. I had no clue the article was talking about it.
Speaker A: Like, oh, this is just common knowledge. This is something he's known for. I'm like, I've never heard this. Granted, I'm not, like, a super huge.
Speaker B: Sir Walter Raleigh fan, but you would have thought you would have heard something.
Speaker A: About it or when I was researching about Shakespeare.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: But anyway, in 1595, he set sail with a fleet. A group I don't know how big a group of boats or ships has to be to qualify as a fleet.
Speaker B: That's a fair point.
Speaker A: So I said, fleet, group, question mark of five small ships. And this is considered an act of open hostility towards Spain, uh, because they were very protective of their holdings in the New World. I can see that.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, Britain had what is now the United States of America kind of unlock. Although the Dutch were in there, too, and the French. And the French.
Speaker B: But Spanish were trying. Yeah.
Speaker A: So Sir Walter Raleigh and his, um, ships, they reached the island of Trinidad, attacking and taking the town of San Jose. They captured Antonio de Barrio. I just really turned into someone from Jersey. Um, all of a sudden.
Speaker B: Antonio debario oh, he's so.
Speaker UNK: Cute.
Speaker A: I feel like on the third version of the bingo card, we need to put, like, a host takes on a random, improv character.
Speaker B: It's usually.
Speaker UNK: You.
Speaker A: What can I say? I got a lot of personalities. Yes, it's fine. So, antonio de barrio, um, he was a high ranking spaniard who had spent, uh, years searching for eldorado himself. And barrio tells them all he knows and tries to dissuade them from going.
Speaker B: But I wrote, greedy white men will not be assuaged.
Speaker A: Good word. Thank you. I did go to a college.
Speaker B: A college.
Speaker A: The plan was to travel up the orinoco, uh, river against the current, like.
Speaker B: Orinoco flow that song by.
Speaker UNK: Enya.
Speaker B: You don't know that song?
Speaker UNK: No. What?
Speaker B: I don't think so. I thought every kid of the 2000s knew that. I will play it for you later. All right.
Speaker A: It might have been if it was early, early two thousand s. That was still when I was in germany, so I might miss the maybe the memo on that. But the plan is to travel up the Orinoko river against the current, following it back to its source. And supposedly at the lake of treasure, they were fearful also, in addition to natural elements and the native peoples, they were fearful of running into the spanish.
Speaker B: Expedition because the spanish would have been not happy. You don't want to step on any toes there.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: So upriver. Walter raleigh befriended an older chieftain named topi owari. He did this by establishing himself as an enemy of the spanish, and therefore, the two of them bonded over. Having a mutual enemy of my enemy is my friend, honestly, is a mood. I'm, um, an awkward person when it comes to I mean, I think I've gotten a little bit better now that I'm more of an adult, but in middle school, high school, college, I struggled to just instantly connect with my peers. Like orientation week of college, I wanted to hang out with the professors more than I wanted to hang out with people in my orientation.
Speaker UNK: Group.
Speaker A: But whenever I'd be in a class, um, like, if we had to be in groups, it was easier to be like, oh, this professor is so dry, or so annoying or whatever. And then you just pull out some of that sarcastic wit, and that's how it bonds. That way, it's fine. So to pio, ware told um, raleigh of a rich culture living in the mountains. Raleigh easily convinced himself that the um culture was an offshoot of the rich inca culture of peru, and that it must be the fabled city of manoa, which is how eldorado was sometimes referred to manoa. In some sources, it seemed like, oh, they were kind of two words or two phrases for the same kind of place. And then in others, it made it sound like no manoa was this mythical golden city in this geographical region.
Speaker B: And Eldorado is over here. Maybe, like, one is in Peru, one's in Columbia.
Speaker A: Yeah. So interesting kind of myth sources on that. I loved this little factoid. Raleigh's scouts gathered rocks in hopes that they would yield some sort of being.
Speaker B: Containing gold or, like, some kind of.
Speaker A: Ore, some essence of gold, that it would act as proof when they went back to England.
Speaker B: It's a good thought.
Speaker A: Um, yes. It's just the fact it was like, they gathered rocks. I'm like toddlers on a hike. And though he felt he was close, raleigh turned his expedition around due to increasing seasonal rains and a continued wariness of the Spanish. Okay. But he made a deal with the chief. Upon his return, the English would help the tribe against the Spanish, and the tribe would help guide the English to this golden city.
Speaker B: At this point, is the tribe kind of like, yeah, okay, we'll take you down the.
Speaker A: River. We can't know for sure because all of these accounts are from the European perspective.
Speaker B: That's fair.
Speaker A: So I don't know how much of it is like, oh, they actually believe.
Speaker B: That there was at least a richer culture.
Speaker A: It doesn't sound like they were like, yeah, there's a city of gold, but they were like, there's a rich culture over here. We'll help you find them, versus how much of it was like, these dumb white guys. Let's tell them what they want to hear, and they'll help us.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: As part of this agreement, raleigh left two men behind, and Sophia Wari's son came back to England with them.
Speaker B: Kind of as, like, cultural, um, exchange. Uh, here's some proof that these people exist. And I guess agreements have been made, maybe for them. It's like, you take care of my people, I'll take care of your people.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: And maybe the chieftain wanted his son to go away from where Spanish were attacking tribes and was like, well, maybe he'll have a better life in England, or he'll learn some things and come back. I don't know. Raleigh does make it back to England, and it's disheartened to hear that he's basically a joke, like people are making, because he didn't find really anything. The rocks turned out to be nothing. Just the rocks. Um, and there's little national support for a second trip to the New World for, uh, him to go searching for Eldorado. Queen Elizabeth is not into it.
Speaker B: She's like, I need more plays, rolly.
Speaker A: Well, he has some more drama. Like, he married one of her maids without permission. And that's how he ended up in the Tower of London for a little bit at some point, to be a queen, someone takes you off, you're just.
Speaker B: Like, put them in the Tower.
Speaker A: Get him out of here. He did eventually make it out of the Tower of London. Um, and he did return to the New World in search of Eldorado in 1617. Okay, so just to remind you and myself. His first journey was in 1595. Okay, so this is a while.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: And in the interim between his two personal trips, he was trying to raise finances, to send other, like, scouting trips to search for proof, to kind of redeem his belief that there was a golden city out there. So he returns in 1617. Although Topiowari passed away not long after Raleigh's first voyage, the goodwill remained, and future English explorers benefited from it. So cultural exchange. That's good. Maybe if you don't murder native people, they will still be willing to help you or help people that look like you. Now an old man himself, though, Raleigh sent his son, um, up the river, and he chose to remain behind at a base camp on the island of Trinidad. Unfortunately, his son, both his outcome and his name are unfortunate. Watt raleigh died during, um, a confrontation with the Spanish.
Speaker UNK: Watt?
Speaker B: Like W-A-T-T?
Speaker UNK: Correct.
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker UNK: Watt.
Speaker B: Maybe it was a nickname. Maybe for Walter. This is, like, 16 whatever they can't spell, really yet.
Speaker A: True.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker B: I don't know. But he died, so he died, and.
Speaker A: Um, Walter Raleigh was devastated. Devastated, super ticked off, super angry. Apparently, there was one survivor that had been out with his son, uh, that survived the confrontation and came back to deliver the news, and he ripped into him anyway. So Sir Walter Raleigh returned to England, both sunless and goldless, and was then executed for, among other things, disobeying orders to avoid conflict with the.
Speaker B: Spanish. Wait, he wasn't there, but he was.
Speaker A: In charge of the expedition? Like, he should have told his son and his men, like, run the heck away.
Speaker B: But maybe they did.
Speaker A: The crown doesn't care. I find it the Royal Queen cares not. Uh, and at that point, I believe I didn't write it down, but at that point, queen Elizabeth had already died, so it was a different monarch.
Speaker B: So it wasn't like, I, like, a favorite anymore. You can say Queen Elizabeth.
Speaker A: And then after that, I'm like James. Yeah, James the first question mark.
Speaker B: Yeah, because he's James the Fifth of.
Speaker A: Scotland or something like that. Look, it got real complicated politically.
Speaker B: Tom, I know your mom is really into this. I know you guys learned all of, um, this. Can you please just tell me all the English we thought we had?
Speaker A: It hard with memorizing, like, 40 presidents, you know?
Speaker B: And it was easy.
Speaker A: It was like, well, they were either in office for four years or eight years, or if it was shorter, they died in the UK.
Speaker B: It's like yeah.
Speaker A: And there were multiple thrones that were up for contention.
Speaker B: And there's also a mixture of male and female, whereas for us, it's all white men except for one.
Speaker A: This is true. But wasn't it only, like, two Elizabeth Sina Mary at all as Henry VIII?
Speaker B: Maybe, I think, from my conception of it, because everyone is marrying other people as princes and princesses and queens and kings and stuff, like William and Mary. Mary was the Queen of England, but William comes first, so all that kind of crap. Tom, can you help me?
Speaker A: Um during the 16 and 17th centuries, europeans still believed that a hidden city of immense treasure existed after all this.
Speaker B: Time of not being able to find it.
Speaker A: Look, it's a big continent. It's a lot of jungle, too. It's not like you're walking through the forest, and it's easy. So numerous expeditions were mounted to search for the treasure, all of which ended in failure. Spoiler alert the inclusion of El Dorado's location, uh, on maps only made matters worse, as it made some people think that the city of Eldorado's existence had been confirmed.
Speaker B: Wait, so where on the map are.
Speaker A: They putting El Dorado? The mythical city of Eldorado on Lake Parimay, was marked on numerous maps until its existence was disproved by Alexander von Humboldt during his Latin American expedition from 1799 to 18.
Speaker UNK: Four.
Speaker A: And then I'm going to show you a little map, Emma. I love old maps. Well, you get the big version, and then I zoomed, uh, in on the other because you can't really see the Eldorado part. Don't worry, audience. Both the full map and the zoomed in part, uh, will be on the Instagram.
Speaker B: I love old maps because they try so hard to be like, yes, this is very accurate. And then they draw just, like, weird.
Speaker A: Uh, creatures, like a bunny.
Speaker B: Oh, that bunny is actually cute. Okay, so manoa I see manoa and then Eldorado.
Speaker A: Okay, yeah. So on the northeast side of this lake until Alexander Bonhonbolt went there, uh, and was like, hey, guys, I was here, and there's no Golden City. No Golden City. So where is El Dorado?
Speaker B: Through that sheet of water, like a waterfall. But then you go through it, and it's like a cave, and then it opens out into, like.
Speaker A: The according to a poem. According to a poem by Edgar Allan Poe. Over the mountains of the moon, down the valley of the shadow ride, boldly, ride, the shade replied, if you seek for El Dorado that's the end part.
Speaker B: I wasn't going to redo the whole poem. Thank you, Pope.
Speaker UNK: Pope.
Speaker A: There are, in fact, um, many El Dorados ranging from Mexico and the United States to Canada and beyond. Canada?
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: People just be name in town.
Speaker UNK: Eldorado.
Speaker B: This is, like, for me to triangle.
Speaker A: In Ireland or like, you search I was searching on Google Images for a, um, Snazzy gold.
Speaker B: You know what the legend says for.
Speaker A: Instagram, and a bunch of the photos.
Speaker B: Were for, like, spas yeah. And golf like, resorts. I was like, this is not I get this when I was doing Atlantis, too, at one where is Atlantis? And it's like, Atlantis, palm Springs, Florida.
Speaker A: That's it.
Speaker B: And I was like, wow.
Speaker A: I mean, you find a gimmick, you milk it.
Speaker B: I guess.
Speaker A: Honestly, I should have written it down. There is a town called Eldorado somewhere in the Midwest. I'm going to say Kansas.
Speaker B: That's probably true.
Speaker A: But during the promotion for the animated movie, they, um, really leaned in. They painted the streets gold and had, like, gold coins.
Speaker B: Oh, I really love that. I seriously enjoy small towns that genuinely are like, okay, our name might be Devil's Hill, but we're going to lean heavily into it because then what you're doing is you're saying, we are so proud of our town, and we enjoy being here, and we want to share that with other people. So let's just lean into the gimmick of it all and have fun with it.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker B: Love that.
Speaker A: Like, there are towns called Christmas.
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: And it's just bananas. Don't think I'd want to live there, but wouldn't mind living, like, an hour away. If you really wanted to feel like a Hallmark movie moment, you could just go, yeah.
Speaker B: And you're absolutely.
Speaker A: It's only September. I don't care.
Speaker B: Well, it's like Athens, Georgia, or Paris, Texas. I've been to both. Paris, Texas is hilarious because there's like that red Eiffel Tower with mhm. No, the Eiffel Tower is gray. And then the hat on top, the Texas cowboys hat on top, hanging off of the Eiffel Tower is bright red, and the hat is enormous. The Eiffel Tower is maybe as tall as the building next to it.
Speaker A: Well, everything is bigger in Texas, Emma, honestly.
Speaker B: But it was super cute. We passed through, and then we went to all these antique stores and then had lunch and laugh.
Speaker A: Have I told you my idea that relates to this sort of thing?
Speaker B: I think you have, but tell me.
Speaker A: I want to host a travel channel show or web series where you go to misnomer towns. So you go to Paris, Texas, and you see if there are fun things to do or if it's just like, oh, they share the name. And there's nothing really interesting because I love when you see that kind of thing. Like, what is it? There's, like, a town in Pennsylvania called Scotland, and whenever we saw the sign, I'd be like, Scotland. I think that would be fun. It would be fun. Someone hired me to do.
Speaker UNK: That.
Speaker B: So, Emma, you may be wondering, I.
Speaker A: Am was any of it real, or is it all just a legend, this idea of Eldorado?
Speaker B: Eldorado the man in gold, or Eldorado.
Speaker A: The City of Gold?
Speaker B: Well, in general, either or in general, I would like to believe that the man of Gold is true, because it sounds true.
Speaker A: I would hope that the City of.
Speaker B: Gold is true, that they kept it secret for forever, but I don't think that's true.
Speaker A: Well, yeah. So, again, our records of this ritual of the Moistka people was from a European, so, uh, grain of salt. But that original point of interest, the initiation ritual, appears to have some plausibility after the 1969 discovery of a gold sculpture that appears to depict that sort of event. You'll see in a moment, Emma, I want to show you the photo. There's, uh, a heavily adorned single figure rising above the other figures on what appears to be a raft. So I will show Emma this photo. So you'll see the really tall guy in the middle. We think that's the chieftain. You see four kind of priests, and then, uh, smaller figures on the outside of the raft. They assume to be the rowers. Um, is this a 3D thing? Yes, the figures are very flat. The BBC news article also went a little more in depth about, um, this, which I didn't feel was duper relevant, but talking about how there, um, was an abundance of gold in this area around Lake WADA Vista, because they would create, um, these very sort of flat but anthropomorphic figures out of gold. But they believe they were only created in, um, existence for maybe between a few hours and a few days, because they so frequently were used in, like, sacrificial sort of ways at this lake. So they would make them real quick, and then, um, throw them into the.
Speaker B: Water to be thin and small in.
Speaker A: Order to well, they were doing the method. They were, like, creating a mold, sort of out of clay, I think, and pouring the gold. So it makes sense that you would want it thin, because then it'll harden quicker and everything. But this has a similar vibe to those that have been discovered. And while archaeologists cannot label this finding of this particular sculpture as definitive proof of the eldorado initiation ritual, it does appear very similar, if not also very likely, that this is something that would happen in that culture long ago. Okay. Unfortunately, there is still a lot, um, of looting occurring in these regions, even into the modern day. Apparently, when new sites of treasure were discovered by looters in the, uh, in northern Colombia, it caused the world gold market to crash, because so, um, much gold was discovered that it became worthless. Which is kind of ironic. Yeah. It's like you went hunting for treasure to be rich, and then you found so much of it that it's worthless. And unfortunately, these pre Colombian gold artifacts, a lot of them get melted if they're found by looters, but some of these artifacts have been rescued from melting, and they can be viewed at the Museo de Oro in Bogota and, uh, in the British Museum in London, because what's not in the British Museum, they just pick it up. Little trinkets from everywhere. That cursed mummy. So I definitely recommend checking out if you're interested, you can check out the sources. You can watch that little there's a five minute clip from the BBC, um, about it. Any thoughts on that before we move on?
Speaker B: Um, no.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker A: And because we're us, we always love tying it into pop culture. So, to bring it full circle, would you like to hear some fun facts about the 2000 animated features? The Road to Eldorado?
Speaker B: Yes, please.
Speaker A: Okay. I love that some of my notes are just little, like, blurbs, and some are like a script, and it's fine. So now you're right. It's one in the morning time. We've got a bit of a, uh, star studded cast. We do, which, honestly, um, always kind of surprises me when it comes to animated movies.
Speaker B: Um, like, Anastasia is a stacked cast. Yes, it is.
Speaker A: But I didn't notice that until I was in, like, 9th grade and I was actually reading the credits. But that's a whole other episode of The Pod. We will save Anastasia for later. So, up first, you have renowned Shakespearean, uh, actor Kenneth Brana as Miguel.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: And American Theater Hall of Fame inductee Kevin Klein.
Speaker B: And Julio, my mom's favorite actor, which is hilarious to me.
Speaker A: So, Klein is known for work on both screen and stage, including a recent role as Calvin on Bob's.
Speaker UNK: Burgers.
Speaker A: I really love that. There you go. Kenneth Brana also directed Thor, so there's a phantom reference, uh, for you if you haven't already marked it on your bingo card. There you go. And unusually for an animated film, client and Brana actually recorded their lines in the same studio together, so they were able to like because this whole movie is like a buddy comedy, road trip sort of adventure film. So they got to build up that buddy energy.
Speaker B: And actually, a lot of their dialogue.
Speaker A: Was improvised, and some of it ended up in the film.
Speaker B: Please tell me the stars are delived.
Speaker A: I don't know. So, as I previously referenced, you have Jim Cummings winning the Poo himself, playing.
Speaker B: Cortez winning the Poo himself.
Speaker A: So, Frank Welker, best known for voicing fred Jones in the Scooby Doo franchise, voices their horse. Altivo, I asked you to bring an HDMI table, uh, because I found where to watch it for free online. Eldorado yes, it's on Peacock. For anyone that know cares, it's free to sign up. So we'll be streaming out from my phone later today, I feel like, because I haven't seen it in so long.
Speaker B: I absolutely love it. The last time I watched The Road to El Dorado, I was doing transcription work for my book class, so I was transcribing early modern English, uh, penmanship while watching Rose.
Speaker A: Uh, you're like, all the history, right? And then we have several other super well known actors, but, uh, we don't have time to go into everybody.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker A: But finally, we have Sir Elton John yes. With what is perhaps my favorite, uh, credit, um, of a character name ever, which is The Singing Narrator. That's right, emma, in case you are like me and totally forgot, the Road to Eldorado actually has a lot of music with lyrics, not just, like, cinematics.
Speaker B: We rode weed blaze. That kind of stuff and to battle.
Speaker A: I was trying to listen to the.
Speaker B: Music while doing this research and I.
Speaker A: Couldn'T do both at the same time. I will point out that Kevin Klein did win a Tony for Best Actor in a musical, um, back in 1981 for prior to Pennsylvania. So they could have gone the traditional music route and had the characters sing the songs, but they did not. They decided, no, we're not going to do that.
Speaker B: And kind of Franco can sing talk like Rex Harrison pretty well.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: There you go. So this music brought back together Elton John, Tim Rice and Hans Zimmer, who had previously collaborated on this, uh, tiny little movie that you might have heard of called The Lion King.
Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I didn't know that.
Speaker A: Yes, and I found it. So last night when I texted you, I was like, oh, I took a turn from I don't know what I'm doing to now. I'm really dorkily excited. It's because I watched the trailer for Road to Eldorado on YouTube and I found it very interesting that in the trailer, they specifically say, like, Elton John and Tim Rice from The Lion King, which is so interesting because that's a DreamWorks. I'm like, wow, you name dropped, like, a major competitor's movie. But okay. Things were different back in 1999, I guess. Apparently, uh, Emma, a cast and crew special edition recording of the soundtrack exists. It does, but was never released to the public.
Speaker UNK: Why?
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: It includes theatrical versions of the songs, including the song It's Tough to Be a God, recorded by Kevin Klein and Kenneth Branna.
Speaker B: I bet you Elton John's just got, like, stacks upon stacks upon stacks of things that he's a bit like Prince when he passed away of just a room that still gives all of his stuff.
Speaker A: No, I feel like Elton John wouldn't have this because he is the soundtrack, so he wouldn't keep the cast and crew recording as, like, release this when I.
Speaker UNK: Die.
Speaker A: But, I mean, we've passed the 20.
Speaker B: Year anniversary, maybe 25. I need it.
Speaker A: Our Kenneth Brown and I started having on Twitter. We just need to start with org.
Speaker B: Let's make this a real thing. Oh, my gosh. Would I be so happy? Yes. I know that Kevin Klein can sing so nicely.
Speaker A: I don't care if he can sing now. Could he sing back in the year 2000?
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: I have another fact that I think you're going to find funny.
Speaker UNK: Okay.
Speaker A: The Backstreet Boys provided uncredited backing vocals on the song Friends Never Say Goodbye. The group is banked by Elton John, following the credits in the CD booklet.
Speaker B: The only mention they get. This is also 2000, though, so this makes a little bit of sense to.
Speaker A: Me for those of you listening at home.
Speaker B: So all of you, please know that.
Speaker A: As soon as I said the words the Backstreet Boys, Emma collapsed as though she had been punched in the stomach or Emma. We were so irresponsible, we didn't buckle in.
Speaker B: We didn't buckle in.
Speaker A: We were on horseback for most of this, so that's fine. But if she had been wearing a seatbelt, she folded over that seatbelt. Like when your mom slams on the.
Speaker B: Brakes really hard, you just need the mom arm across me.
Speaker A: Yeah, you needed the mom.
Speaker B: Arm. I will say, when I was a.
Speaker A: Kid, for Christmas one year, it must.
Speaker B: Have been when I was about six, um, or seven. I had two major music loves. The first was the band called Bewitched. If you remember Bewitched, it was A, B and Asterisks. And then Witched, like W-I-T-C-H-T-I love them Irish group. They only have really, like, maybe two, uh, albums. But as a six year old child, I had their cassette tape, and I would listen to it on my Walkman all the time. I loved it. And then I had the Backstreet Voice. I was not an In Sync girl, although I now appreciate and love In Sync, but I was a Backstreet Boys girl. And my mom, one year for Christmas, gave me a cassette tape, uh, of one of their albums. Keep in mind, I am six years old. And a notebook and stickers and pencils. That all, um, had all of their memorabilia and stuff. And I honestly think, uh, it was K feed on my notebook. And I think the only reason she bought it was because he's in the Backstreet Boys.
Speaker A: Kevin Federaline. Uh, yeah, right. I only know him as famously being married to Britney Spear.
Speaker B: Yeah, baby. He's in Factory Boys. And Aaron Carter's brother Nick.
Speaker A: Yeah. Hold on.
Speaker B: Shannon is looking up the members of Backstreet Voice.
Speaker A: I'm on his Wikipedia page. And you may hear audience at home. There is.
Speaker B: Nothing who is in Backstreet Boys?
Speaker A: Hi, I'm my grandmother. Yeah, dude. I hate to praise you. He is not who's in the Backstreet Boy? You got Nick Carter on vocals.
Speaker B: On vocals. Are they not all singing?
Speaker A: Now that you mentioned it. And I look at the other four members, they're all just listed as vocal. Nick Carter, AJ Mcclee with the Richardson, kevin Richardson, Ryan Latrell, and Howie Duro. Yeah. Kevin Federline is nowhere to be found. OK. Why did I think it was Khan? I don't know. Well, I was an Insync girl.
Speaker B: As Zach has told me, I'm not allowed to say anything with confidence anymore. He roasted us so far. He came up from the gym and he was basically like, so Australia and Russia are so far away from each other.
Speaker UNK: Literally.
Speaker A: I'm in the group text, australia and Russia, very far away from each other. Also, Alaska is like, that right next to Russia. I was like, I know, Zack.
Speaker B: We made fun of ourselves on the podcast. Yeah, I told him. I said that Alaska was close to Russia and that probably isn't all that close.
Speaker UNK: Right.
Speaker A: We went into the whole joke of like, right, but we only think that Alaska, Russia far away because we're used to looking at the traditional map around the back side of the map.
Speaker B: Anyway.
Speaker UNK: CheeseBack.
Speaker A: We'll save it. For corrections, mailbag episodes one last note on the topic of music in the animated movie. According to the Wikipedia, there's apparently a Best Buy exclusive track titled Hey.
Speaker UNK: Armadillo.
Speaker A: Which I did not do my due diligence and see if it's available on YouTube. But if it is, we'll throw it in this.
Speaker B: Absolutely we will.
Speaker A: So I'll talk a little bit about development of this movie because I'm a nerd about these things and you're my hostage. The rest of them can skip by.
Speaker B: But you get to listen to.
Speaker UNK: This.
Speaker A: So in October 1994, uh, we're both low babies.
Speaker B: I'm a bitty baby. You're like a little toddler. Yeah, I'm one and a half.
Speaker A: You're like toddling around, causing trouble. Former Walt Disney Company chairman Jeffrey Katzenberg had, um, met with screenwriters Ted Elliott and Terry Roseo.
Speaker B: Sorry, I got distracted by the fact.
Speaker A: That Ted and Terry feel like very similar names, but they're actually not. But anyway, he gave them a copy of Hugh Thomas's book Conquest montezuma Cortez, and the Fall of Old Mexico, and was like, use this as a jumping off point.
Speaker B: Figure it out. Okay.
Speaker A: And in the original concept, the story was actually a little darker and more dramatic. But at the time, Dreaming Burke was in production on The Prince of Egypt. So Cassie Berg was like, oh, let's lighten it up. Because the Prince of Egypt is so.
Speaker B: Good, but real heavy. Yeah, it's heavy. But that music man.
Speaker A: So good. He's a what? He's a what? He's a music man.
Speaker B: Oh, my God.
Speaker UNK: Sorry.
Speaker A: Uh, this is how my brain works. But yes, the principal is just so good. I want to see it on stage. It was in the West End before the world shut down, so hopefully someday. But because of this kind of rewrite situation, the road to Eldorado was put on hold. And it was jokingly referred to as, uh, Eldorado, the Lost City on hold.
Speaker B: Because it was kind of constantly being put on the stats.
Speaker UNK: Owner.
Speaker A: I feel like it's a thing of like, movies who have to go through that. Then when they finally get made, they are kind of mixed at the box office and then they become cult classics like The Princess Bride. Yeah. Apparently the team originally thought this movie was going to be rated PG 13. So it actually had, um, a lot more intense adventure and love sequences. Well, there is a love sequence in it. No, but it was more intense. And apparently Chelsea clothing was going to be a lot more scandalous. But then they were like, just kidding, it's for the kids. Tone it back.
Speaker B: Bring it back.
Speaker A: And they really just decided to focus on the friendship between Miguel and Julio, and we love it.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker A: So while the film was released in, uh, 2000 to mix reviews, and it's considered a box office bomb because it did not recoup its $95 million budget.
Speaker B: What?
Speaker A: $95 million?
Speaker UNK: Yes.
Speaker A: It takes a lot of money to make movies. I'm up. But anyway, even though it is considered a box office bomb, it has regained popularity through the format of the Internet meme.
Speaker B: And rightly so.
Speaker A: And I will wrap it up by saying we invite our fantastic listeners to create their very own this podcast doesn't exist. Both these good memes and share them with us. With your permission, we would love to reshare them on the podcast Instagram. You can find us at this podcast doesn't exist.
Speaker B: Follow us.
Speaker A: Turn on your post notifications because, um, sometimes I post little hints or little jokes, little TikToks that relate to episodes. It was the Blue Devil Horse sculpture's.
Speaker B: Birthday the other day.
Speaker A: I know that that, uh, was fun. So give us a follow.
Speaker B: We want to be friends. And send us your stories, your haunted stories, your adventure stories, um, anything you feel like we would like to read, listen to. I couldn't think of a good word for it.
Speaker A: What is a verb?
Speaker B: What is a verb? Send them to this podcast doesn't And I will say I am very proud of myself for, um, thinking that quickly and getting, um, that both is good, right?
Speaker A: I'm very proud of you.
Speaker B: Also, I'm pretty impressed that my, uh, brain actually was able to do that.
Speaker A: Yeah, because sometimes I try to do a joke and it doesn't work because Emma's brain is on a different wavelength of mine.
Speaker B: Well, it's a Dell computer trying really hard to boot.
Speaker UNK: Up.
Speaker B: Don't be.
Speaker UNK: Me.
Speaker B: She ended up holding her dull.
Speaker UNK: Computer.
Speaker A: We did just fine. Things got a little questionable at 01:00 A.m. Last night, but it's okay. We made it through. But yeah. Unless you have any other thoughts, Emma?
Speaker UNK: No.
Speaker B: This is a great I'm very proud of you. Thank you.
Speaker A: I feel like we're just slowly completing the pop culture things that we love and forgot we loved as young Ins, and we're just bringing them into the podcast.
Speaker B: I mean, I cannot express to you how happy I was that after the Atlantis episode, I was able to watch Atlantis and feel the same way I felt when I was, like, 14 watching this movie. It was so good. Side note, very off topic, I introduced Zach not last night, the night before to Rogers and Hammerstein Cinderella with Whitney Houston and Brandy, and I will say he loved it. And I remembered just how freaking good that movie is. And you are currently looking at me like you.
Speaker A: Have never seen it.
Speaker B: I have been your best friend for how long?
Speaker A: Like, eight years?
Speaker B: How have I not made you watch this movie yet? I don't know. Tonight, when we get this. It will have a double fee double feature.
Speaker A: I mean, if we're really time effective, we can do a triple feature. We could do El Dorado, Cinderella, and Atlantis, because I, uh, didn't watch Atlantis after your episode. I'm a terrible friend.
Speaker B: Uh, it's because I want to be.
Speaker A: Able to sit down and actually put my phone, uh, away and pay attention.
Speaker B: It's so good.
Speaker A: I know.
Speaker B: Also, talk about diverse casts I have. And Cinderella.
Speaker A: Yes, this is true. Yes, I do love the memes that are like, why, yes, a white man.
Speaker B: And a black woman had a Filipino son. Also, I love the Goldberg in general, but her comedy in this is just like, she doesn't have that large of a part that she's like, I'm going to make the most of this, and it's so good.
Speaker A: Milk it, honey.
Speaker B: Milk it. And Victor Garber is her husband, and it's great.
Speaker A: And he was in Titanic, so we got it together.
Speaker B: All right, we're going to go plan.
Speaker A: Our next movie night. Share your thoughts with us on Instagram and over the email.
Speaker B: And remember, this podcast doesn't.
Speaker A: Exist.
Speaker B: And say.

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Poetry Foundation: “Eldorado” by Edgar Allen Poe:
The Mother Source: and

Ep. 19: Woo! Politics: El Dorado

Now we would love to all find a city of gold, but could we actually succeed? And why do we even think there is one in the first place? Come listen as Shannon tells Emma all about El Dorado, both the maybe mythical place and the 2000 movie (Elton's greatest work) that everyone should be in love with.

Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: I'm gone.
Speaker A: So hey.
Speaker B: Hello.
Speaker A: Hi.
Speaker B: I'm Emma.
Speaker A: I am Shannon.
Speaker B: And welcome, uh, to this podcast doesn't exist. I always feel the need to pause.
Speaker A: You always pause. And I always go, oh, am I supposed to? No. Okay. I won't say anything.
Speaker B: No, you don't have to worry about it.
Speaker A: I'm just here as a passenger.
Speaker B: I'm going to need you to buckle in then.
Speaker A: How expensively?
Speaker B: Not too extensively. Because you actually know this case.
Speaker A: I do.
Speaker B: Yes, you do. So, uh, I was the utmost of lazy people this past week. It was two snow days for me, which meant nothing because my puppy, Penny had a she tore her ACL.
Speaker A: Um, she's such an athlete.
Speaker B: Well, she's a lot of muscle, so she definitely overexerted herself. And she tore her ACL. Uh, and so obviously, she had to get it repaired. But now she is very upset, sitting in a cone, um, and just being a right old brat about it. Um, because she's a talker, not a barker, so she just grumbles at us all day. Um, but that was basically it was like having a newborn, honestly. There was a full night where we got no sleep and we took shifts to make sure that she was okay. And that was awful. We figured it out. We're fine. But we are both very tired, Peter and I. Um, and we are very ready to have her heal, but it's going to take eight weeks. So I was the utmost of lazy, because not only did that happen, but I started a new job, um, in conjunction with my old one, so that got crazy. So I apologize that you have heard this one already from me, but they have not, because it got eaten by my computer when we first.
Speaker A: Recorded, while any of my family was listening, is calling me out, uh, that I just snorted. Because at our family gatherings, it's always.
Speaker B: A thing that everyone snorts.
Speaker A: Well, it's like we are laughing. People are a real none of us are super skinny many, so we just are very hardy laughter. Laughters. Mhm sure. And it's just a thing like my dad or other people, like, oh, the first one is like but I'm like, that's not cute. I'm not ashamed. I think some people are trying to be like, oh, my God, no, I didn't do it. I'm like, Nah, that happened.
Speaker B: Your laugh should never be something you're embarrassed about. Uh, yeah, there was a girl I went to, uh, elementary school with, and she laughed like she was a goose. It was genuinely like a honk whenever she left. Apparently, that killed Chan.
Speaker A: No, I think I would have hated that girl.
Speaker B: Oh, she was delightful. But it was very loud. It was a honk. I'm not going to even try to recreate it. But what I appreciated about her and this is like an elementary school this.
Speaker A: Is like fourth or fifth grade formative times.
Speaker B: Exactly. A lot of people would try and make fun of her, and her answer always was, which I'm sure this was great parenting on her family's, uh, part, but her answer always was, it's my laugh. It means I'm happy. Why would I try and hide it? And I'm like, Okay, that's fair. That's fair.
Speaker A: One of the things where you feel like a terrible person when you're annoyed by someone you're like, it's literally just who they are. They can't change it. Why do I resent you right now?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Can, um, I tell you something?
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: I don't remember what topic.
Speaker B: I'm glad that's what I was banking on.
Speaker A: Uh, I have no idea. So it's a new day.
Speaker B: Hold on.
Speaker A: I never did buckle in. Let me get both sides. I'm going to make it an airplane.
Speaker B: That's a good idea because we're going all the way to Australia.
Speaker A: Oh, okay. I remember, but I don't remember the date. Okay.
Speaker B: That's why I did this. This is me being the utmost lazy because these notes were already you're not.
Speaker A: Being lazy, you're being resourceful.
Speaker B: I was waiting for that knowledge. I was going to keep this for a while and see if I could make it to like, one year anniversary. But no. Rough week. We needed something that was there already. And this is an amazing case. This is one of my very favorites. It was supposed to be my first, and now it's the 18th, which is my 9th, I guess. Yeah. Anyway, so this is the Tommshoot case. This is also known as the Summertime Beach mystery or the enigma of the quote, unknown man, but I learned it as the Tommy Shoot case. So it is Tuesday, November 31, 948 in Adelaide, South Australia, and it is the first day of southern summer because we're in the Southern hemisphere, so winter is in our summer up here in the Northern hemisphere, and their summer is in our winter. So they have very sunny, warm Christmas. A jeweler and his wife are walking on Summerton Beach at around 07:00 p.m.. A smartly dressed man was lying in the sand, his legs outstretched with his feet crossed and leaning against the sea wall about 20 yards from where they were walking. And they watched as he raised his right hand and then let it fall. And they just assumed he was drunk, which, honestly, I would have done too. Like, you see someone kind of like half sleeping on the beach.
Speaker A: Leave you be, enjoy your life, summer. Maybe you had a little cocktail situation.
Speaker B: Regardless, Tuesday night, whatever, man. Feel free. So they moved on. Another couple passed about half an hour later and saw the same man in the same position. But this time he looked asleep. He wasn't moving. The girlfriend noted how out of place his clothes seemed. She thought he was, like, too shiny, like he had nice shoes. He was dressed in a really nice outfit, like suit jacket. Tie, all that. So she was like, it's a little odd that he's, uh, falling asleep on the beach. You'd assume that that might be someone experiencing homelessness or someone who just decided, this is where I'm going to sit for the night. Not usually someone in a business suit, but okay. They decided, the couple, that he was asleep and that he didn't notice the mosquitoes that were surrounding his face. And the boyfriend remarked, he must be dead to the world not to notice them. This was true because in the next morning, it became obvious that this man was not faking it. He truly was super dead. Which I wrote, super dead.
Speaker A: He's like, super dead.
Speaker B: He's like, super dead. He was found in the exact position that the couples described him in. He was slumped against the sea wall, his legs out, his feet crossed. There were no marks of violence, no evidence of any kind of outward, uh, force whatsoever. 3 hours later, the body arrived at the Royal Adelaide Hospital, where the doctor put the time of death at around 02:00. A.m.. He was cold. They arrived at the beach. Takes about 24 hours, depending on the ambient temperature around the body to have it cool completely. This is weird stuff that Emma knows. He guessed that the likely cause of death was heart failure and also said he suspected that the man had been poisoned. He was around his late 40s, they assumed, so the heart failure thing wasn't unusual. But of course, poison is poison is very unusual. But the autopsy didn't find poison. Instead, pathologist John Dwyer found that his pupils were smaller than normal and he called them unusual. His spleen was strikingly large and firm, about three times its normal size, end quote. Which just how does that even fit in your body?
Speaker A: That just makes me uncomfortable. Like, I don't want someone talking about my organs that way.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: I guess if I'm found under mysterious circumstances do what you got to do.
Speaker B: Strikingly large and firm.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: Three, there was spit on the side of his mouth, which, I mean, makes sense for both a dead body and potentially a poisoned person.
Speaker A: Or a drunk person.
Speaker B: Or a drunk person. Four, his liver was distended with congested blood, which means one of two things. One, it was ruptured, but it wasn't noted. Or two, he ingested a lot of blood and it was filtered into his liver. No, his stomach contained remnants of the last meal he had, which was a pasty, which is like a little hand pie. And there was more blood in his stomach. So that correlates with the idea that he ingested blood.
Speaker A: Sorry, I can't make a sound I want to make because I don't want to do that as an audio experience for, uh, people.
Speaker B: But just know that she's going full turtle grump. His toes were oddly wedge shaped, as if he had been, quote, in the habit of wearing high heeled and pointed shoes.
Speaker A: Maybe he's a dark queen.
Speaker B: And his calf muscles were high and very well developed, like yours.
Speaker A: Shout out to the McCarthy Cabs. We didn't have to do any work for them.
Speaker B: No, but, Dang, they look like you do. Like you take your bike around for five mile cycling sessions.
Speaker A: Yeah. What do people even do to define their Cabs?
Speaker B: Mine, um, are already defined, so they even had an expert chemist whose name I could not find, do repeated tests of his blood and organs. But there wasn't even the faintest trace of poison, which Dwyer, the pathologist was astounded by, because he's assuming this guy has ingested blood. His spleen is completely abnormally sized, his pupils are weird, his liver is completely distended, like something's up.
Speaker A: Well, and if there had been some sort of, like, internal injury, that would be noted. Yeah, to explain why there'd be so much blood in his stomach. Like his esophagus tore or I don't know.
Speaker B: Yeah, for Dwyer, he was like, this makes no sense as to why he's not poisoned. Like, why can't we find it? So no cause of death was found, which left the corner in a very difficult situation. The only possible solution was that there was a very rare kind of poison that was completely digested and decomposed fairly quickly after death so that it left no trace when they did an autopsy. The coroner was told by Cedric Stanton Hicks, very important sounding, he was a professor of physiology and pharmacology at the University of Adelaide, that it could be one of two possibilities. One, digitalis, which is the fancy name for foxglove, which is a fairly common poison from forever ago. Like, it's commonly been used as either a way to make you throw, uh, up, or a way to, uh, make you die. It's a very fine line. There's a musical reference. Did you watch Avenue Q? Have you ever seen Avenue Q? Never in it's not my brand of humor. It's fine.
Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a little too over, that fine line for me.
Speaker B: It is, because it's puppets, and there's weird things that happen with puppets.
Speaker A: I've heard Malora had to teach students when they did it. The mhm musical. Yeah.
Speaker B: All right, beyond that, we'll move on. Two was Stropanathin or wobain. Shannon remembers her lines.
Speaker A: Oh, I said that last year. I'm nothing if not predictable, friends.
Speaker B: Let's call it consistent.
Speaker A: Yeah, consistent.
Speaker B: So, uh, wolbain is a rare glucose derived from seeds of some African plants used historically by a Somalian tribe to poison their arrows. Uh, it was also used in small doses at this time to treat arrhythmias and heart conditions. So the idea that maybe he I haven't had breakfast. I know. Uh, I woke up really late today. I was supposed to be here at nine. I was here at nine three, which is late for me, usually. I'm here at 855. If I were going to be here at nine. I woke up at eight and I had to take the puppy out. I had to get dressed. I had to do all of my stuff, so I didn't eat breakfast.
Speaker A: I was just putting the cattle on when she got here.
Speaker B: Anyway, uh, the fact that there was a possibility of a heart attack or some kind of heart condition being the reason why he died, it's a cause of death would kind, um, of explain this if it were something, because this is a possibility of what could have been in his system, so it would make sense. But neither could be easily found in the autopsy, even if they were looking for it. So it, uh, wouldn't matter what dosage it was. They probably wouldn't be able to find it, no matter what test they did. But there was no evidence of vomiting or convulsion, except maybe when he raised his hand and set it back down. But to me, that makes it seem like he raised his hand to be like, whoa, what's happening?
Speaker A: You know what I mean? Or like, maybe something was going on where he couldn't speak, but he was, like, trying to get attention from that couple. Maybe convulsion portrays this idea of sporadic, uh, plastic movement.
Speaker B: So it makes no sense to me that that would possibly be a convulsion, but I had to mention it. But there's no evidence of vomiting. Um, there's just, like, a little round of mouth, which is gross, but not, like, evidence of poisoning. And usually, even if this is a substance, uh, that you ingest regularly for a heart condition, and it's just at a larger dosage, regardless, your body wouldn't probably take that.
Speaker A: Even if, say, um, he vomited and convulsed and stuff at a different location and was somehow translated there, wouldn't there be some sort of evidence of vomiting.
Speaker B: Um, in the mouth, like acid traces or something like that? Uh, Dwyer didn't find it, so there was no evidence of vomiting, which is odd. But both of these substances, this digitalis and the strapanistan, were fairly easy to procure without any reason at a chemist, because this is like, if you need it here.
Speaker A: That was back still when they were like, mothers, have a little bit of cocaine to get you through the day.
Speaker B: Give your babies whiskey to make them sleep.
Speaker A: It's fine.
Speaker B: Yes. So, apart from the unusual findings of the autopsy, what they found on the man was equally baffling. He was found with a halfsmoked or unlit cigarette. There are differing, um, accounts on his collar as, uh, though it had fallen from his mouth, but I don't know if they'd checked or if it was just kind of, like, thrown on him, like, I don't know. In his pockets were the following an unused second class rail ticket from Adelaide to Henley Beach, which is a suburb of Adelaide, and a bus ticket from the city that may or may not have been used because it wasn't whole punched. It wasn't punched. Uh, a pack of Juicy Fruit chewing gum, which I was just thinking about Juicy Fruit as a thing then, but it must have been anyway a box of matches, two combs or one, which may have been a US manufactured aluminum comb again, differing accounts and a pack of Army Club cigarettes that actually contain seven cigarettes of another more expensive kind called concitas which is weird that you have a different brand inside of a different packet but it may have been that he bought another packet, didn't want people to try and bum a nice cigarette off of him like that.
Speaker A: Checksmakes commercial uh oh, yeah, where they put it in a boring potato chip bag and everyone's like, Oh, never mind.
Speaker B: Uh, yeah, but then you have to check all to yourself. My favorite. So, yeah. What they didn't find was more annoyingly unusual. He had no wallet, no cash, no hat, which in 1948 was unusual apparently no identification of any kind, no name tags or makers labels on any of his clothing excepting one item, which I couldn't necessarily find which one this was, but it was a maker's, um, label, not a name tag. And all of these makers labels or name tags had been carefully clipped out and a trouser pocket had been fixed, uh, with a weird variety of orange thread. Okay, so now the police are really like, what? Because that's what I wrote. They took his fingerprints and distributed them throughout Australia and then the rest of the Englishspeaking world and there were no hits. Why restrict yourself to the Englishspeaking world? I don't know but this was also 1948, this is right after the Second World War.
Speaker A: You have to be just visually comparing yeah, no, doesn't matter.
Speaker B: Exactly. So the dental records that they took, two produced no hits, they took impressions and they were no hits. His photo was published in the newspaper and people from around Adelaide and relatives of missing persons were brought to the mortuary in the hope that they could identify the man, but no one could. That's just so sad to me, though, too, of being that kind of hopeful that, hey, this might be him, the person that I've lost for years.
Speaker A: And then it's sort of hopeful because you want closure but then also part of you doesn't want it to be.
Speaker B: Them because then they're dead anyway. But, uh, no one could identify him. The police widened the search to hopefully locate some possessions since no one in Adelaide could identify him, thinking that maybe he was a tourist and therefore may have stayed at a hotel or passed through a train station in less luggage or maybe someone had seen him when he walked through. They searched every hotel cleaners, lost property, office and railway station and finally found at the main train station a brown suitcase in a cloak room deposited there on November 30 the same day the couple saw the man on the beach. So the staff didn't remember the man. And the contents of the suitcase weren't necessarily very helpful, but they were able to figure out that this was most likely his. So in the suitcase were an orange card of thread that matched the repair in the dead man's trousers. So at least we know that the trousers came from this suitcase. Why are you laughing?
Speaker A: Because Dead Man's Trousers sounds like a Pirates of the Caribbean knockoff. Uh, I don't know why. That's just very funny.
Speaker B: So I'm going to tell you a little tidbit from what I remember doing this case earlier, um, you said Deadman's Trousers was the perfect metal band name.
Speaker A: I stand by that, too.
Speaker B: Again, consistency.
Speaker A: Thank you. You're welcome.
Speaker B: A stencil kit and brush used by the third officer on merchant ships responsible for the stenciling of cargo. A little weird, but okay. A table knife, sharpened to a point. He has shiv. A red checked dressing gown that a tailor determined was from America based on the unusual stitching pattern. Size seven pair of red felt slippers mapped the dressing gown. Four pairs of underpants pajamas. A shaving kit, a light brown pair of trousers with sand in the cuffs. An electrician screwdriver, which I did ask Peter, because he was an electrician's apprentice for a little while. What an electrician screwdriver? Mhm was. And he had to think about it for a second. And then he realized, oh, it's got a rubber handle so that you can electrocute yourself if you stick it somewhere it's not supposed to go.
Speaker A: How handy. How smart.
Speaker B: Yeah. There was a pair of scissors with sharpened points. Uh, so he had two shifts.
Speaker A: Or is it three? The scissors have two blades.
Speaker B: Smart.
Speaker A: Mhm maybe you could just slip.
Speaker B: Visual bits.
Speaker A: Visual bits. Mark it on your bingo card. If we put it on I think we put it on the bingo card.
Speaker B: You did. Or it's on the list of haley.
Speaker A: Gave me so many recommendations.
Speaker B: Uh, it's on the mark three, which is take a moment and appreciate haley.
Speaker A: I thought you were going to harmonize with me.
Speaker B: Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. A small square of zinc that could have been used as a sheath for the knife or the scissors. So it was like a little pocket of zinc. I don't really know how that is.
Speaker A: Yeah. Is it a mineral? A metal how does that, uh okay, we don't know.
Speaker B: Pencils. An unused letter stationery. A singlet, which is basically like a wrestling outfit kind of situation. Probably more so his bathing suit. In any case, a laundry bag and a tie. So there were no stickers or markings on the suitcase, and a label had been torn off from one side. There were tags missing from the clothing except for three. And it's the last three on the list. The singlet, the laundry bag and the tie. And they all had the same name of Keen.
Speaker UNK: Uh, mhm.
Speaker B: The police couldn't trace anyone with that name and concluded that someone had left them on purpose, knowing that they couldn't be traced. So it's not an unknown practice at this time to put your name in clothing, but this is also after World War II, so it's not uncommon as well to buy second hand clothing that already had a name in it and either remove that name and put your own in or just leave it because you're wearing it and it's fine, you know, it's yours.
Speaker UNK: Yeah.
Speaker B: So it's hard to get new clothing because of rationing and all that stuff, so it's not uncommon. But it would not be his name that was in this. But it is a little weird that we can't find a T. Keen or anyone by that name. So let me show you them finding them, finding the suitcase and the smaller contents of the suitcase. You'll find these photographs on our Instagram at this podcast. Doesn't exist.
Speaker A: The middle guy looks like Grandpa Joe.
Speaker B: You said that the last time too.
Speaker A: I stand by it. From Charlie or Willy Wonka in the Chocolate Factory, which is the superior edition. Sorry, joined up.
Speaker B: You're weird. Yeah, but yeah. So they're just rifling through clothes, but.
Speaker A: Got to figure out the chain of whatever for evidence. We don't need that. We, uh, just touch everything. What's, uh, DNA? We don't know.
Speaker B: John Mulaney. Uh, stand up bit where detectives and the 1900s would be like, hey, this is a dead person. We've outlined him in chalk. Oh, that's pool of blood. Clean it up. Don't want it. Let's get back to my hunch.
Speaker A: This makes me laugh.
Speaker B: I love it. So eventually, the city decided that the body would have to be buried since it was starting to get real gross. Yeah. They first embalmed the body and took a cast of his head and shoulders.
Speaker A: Oh, no.
Speaker B: Which makes no sense to me if you have a photograph.
Speaker A: Who was it? I don't. I'm terrible with names. But the doctor in more recent times. The doctor who murdered his entire family because he lost his job and was facing bankruptcy and all these things. And then he left them all in the ballroom of their mansion with music playing for days until the neighbors came and he disappeared. They eventually caught him because of a bust that someone did of him. Like, age progressed. And then it turned out they had a Tiffany window in their ballroom bed that would have paid for all of the debts. Anyway.
Speaker B: We won't be doing that one, obviously, because it's a solved case, but I can't remember the name of it, and I, um, know that my favorite murder. And that's why we drink. And Morbid podcasts have all done it. So just go, uh, to them.
Speaker A: I'm sure if you Google, like, doctor family killer, Tiffany window.
Speaker B: Yeah, he's called a family annihilator oh, yeah.
Speaker A: Did you Jersey?
Speaker B: I don't remember.
Speaker A: I feel like it was neither food. It was Jersey.
Speaker B: Anyway, so this guy is going to get gross. They bulb him, they take a cast. Then they buried him under concrete on December 10, 1948, in a plot of dry ground specifically chosen in case they needed to exhume him at a later date. So that's the reason why there's concrete, uh, on top of him.
Speaker A: That's rude.
Speaker B: It's to make sure that there's no animal interference, no element interference, to try and make sure, uh, that if the need arises to assume him back up, they can just remove the gigantic thing.
Speaker A: Uh, they are really forward thinking. Part of their business.
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: They're like, no, whatever dingo ate my body. I think you might have just named.
Speaker B: The episode never Happened. All right, so four months after the man was found, another expert was brought in to reexamine the possessions. John Cleland, emeritus professor of Pathology at the University of Adelaide, examined all of these possessions and produced the most baffling and the last piece of physical evidence. In this case, in a small pocket, most likely for a fob watch, which was sewn into the waistband of the dead man's trousers. You know how, like, yoga pants will have that tiny pocket? So this was similar to that. But this is where I keep my.
Speaker A: Pocket, uh, watch in my yoga. Yes, your New York and my fancy pocket watch.
Speaker B: But this piece, uh, of his trousers had been missed before, but inside, uh, of it was a tightly rolled, tiny piece of paper, which, when opened, read tamam shoot, printed in, quote, elaborate script. So most likely this script was meant to resemble handwriting because it was definitely printed script. Police reporter Frank Kennedy recognized the phrase as Persian, which, like, Whoa.
Speaker A: Okay, lucky that it was him and not John Smith working that day, right?
Speaker B: But he told the police to look at a copy of The RubyAt of, uh, Omar Kaham, a book on poetry reflecting on life and morality. Its theme, uh, is that one should live life to the fullest with no regrets when it ends. In most English translations, the book ends with the phrase tamam shud, which, translated, means it is ended. I also want to say, at Christmas, we were at my in law's house, all cove and safe, because everyone had been there for a really long time, and we had our tests and everything. So don't worry people, but they have a fairly extensive library. And when I say library, I don't just mean a room. I mean their house is covered in books, and a lot of them have been gifted from other family members or they're collected from the kids growing up, all of that. And there's this room that currently is like the cat room, where their kitty cat, Amber, sometimes sleeps, and that's where her food is and all that to keep it away uh, from everything. So that's where she was. And in that room, there's bookshelves and tons of books. I was in that room feeding the cat right before going to bed. And in the same shelf as where the cat food was was this shelf of beautiful old 1920s books. And because I'm me, I'm investigating them, and on the shelf is The RubyAt. And so I open it because immediately.
Speaker A: I'm like, Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B: So I pull it off and I open it, and it's a printing from, like, 1926, I think. And I flip all the way to the back. I don't even care about the front flip all the way to the, um, back to read to see if Tommy Shoot is in there. And the way that this one would have had to have worked is that Tomm Shud would have had to have been separated from the rest, um, of the verse at it's the very end of the verse, uh, that it comes from. It would have had to have been separated from the rest of the verse in order to be, um, cut out. The way that it was. It wasn't separated. And I was like, No, I didn't.
Speaker A: Find the last rubyte.
Speaker B: Because no one could find this rubyte version. They couldn't find this edition that matched this typeface, regardless of the numerous copies of the RubyAt. This was a weirdly popular book at the time. And my guess is, because it's right after World War II, everyone's feeling fairly like this might be the last day we ever have kind of thing like trying to make the most of life now that they have their people back. But yeah. So I could have found the lost copy and been like, what if I could compare that?
Speaker A: No, it would have certainly helped the podcast.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Great. Decades old crime, right?
Speaker B: Almost a century now. No, that's not true. This is 2021.
Speaker A: Century is 1000 years, right?
Speaker B: No, century is 100 years.
Speaker A: Then what's? 1000 a millennia. Yeah. Millennium. Yeah. I know things. Um.
Speaker B: Both of us are struggling with hardcore.
Speaker A: It is early.
Speaker B: It's not it's 11:24 a.m. Anyway, moving on. The discovery of the translation could be evidence of a case of suicide, they thought. And the South Australian police never turned this case into a murder investigation. Rather more of a missing person inquest and inquiries. It wasn't deemed a suicide. It wasn't deemed a murder. It was just kind of like, we don't know who he is. We don't know how he died. Big, huge question mark. So eight months later, in July of 1949, a man walked into the detective office of Adelaide with a rare copy of the RubyAt and told Detective Sergeant Lionel a really, uh, weird story. And there's some strong speculation about the truth of this, but we're going to roll with it. Early the previous December, when the dead man had been found on the beach, this guy and his brotherinlaw went for a drive in their car that was parked a few hundred yards from somerton, uh, beach. The brother in laws found the book on the floor of the rear seats. The men assumed it belonged to the other and stuck it in the glove compartment, which, why don't you ask, is this yours? No, it's not mine. Weird.
Speaker A: Well, maybe they were doing something like, uh, you get in your friend's car, like when you get in my car and I have audiobooks and an ice scraper and whatever, you just stick it on the floor, like, tuck it in without being like, shannon, this ice creper, where do I put it? You just move it. It's fine.
Speaker B: All right, well, that's fair. Once the new newspapers put out that the police were searching for a copy of the Rubyte, they pulled out the copy and looked closer and noticed that the final page had been torn out, which would have had the last words on it. And it's not necessarily torn out. It has been pieces of it have been cut out. And I'll show you a picture in a second. Detective Lean took a closer look at the book, which was a 1941 edition of Edward Fitzgerald's translation published by Whitcombe and Tombs in Christchurch, New Zealand, and almost immediately found two telephone numbers written in pencil on the rear cover. He went fullblown Sherlock with a magnifying glass and made out the faint impression of some other letters written in capital underneath. So finally we've got a clue. Cryptic, but we got a clue. So I'm going to show you some photos because there are lots. If the torn cut out potentially mhm last few verses of that, and then we have our cryptic scroll back up.
Speaker A: Mhm, you look like a turtle.
Speaker B: One number was unlisted, but they found that the other belonged to a nurse who lived near Summerton Beach. She was only known by her nickname in the newspapers of Jestyn, which is spelled, uh, J-E-S-T-Y-N. It doesn't sound similar to any other name. Like, I don't know.
Speaker A: She is clearly a time traveler from the year 2017, obviously, whose mom wanted to be very creative.
Speaker B: Well, this is also just her nickname, so I don't know if she came up with this nickname or someone else did. I don't know.
Speaker A: But they're like, let's pick a name that won't be confused with anyone's actual name so that in the newspaper that might be no one will get confused or offended, maybe.
Speaker B: The police then were pretty willing to protect witnesses identities and there was no reason not to protect her identity, so they allowed the nickname to fly. She reluctantly eventually admitted that she had presented a copy of the book to a man she knew during the war named Alfred Boxal. The police found Bogsal's residence in Maroonburg, New South Wales. And they got all excited like, okay, we're going to go. It's going to be like, Oh, my gosh, he's been missing for days. We don't know where he's or years at this point. We don't know where he's been. This dude was still alive and had the copy of the rubiot that Justin had given him intact with her inscription. So now they're back to square one. They're like, Oh, dang. It weird that your number was in the back of this RubyAt, but you also gave her ruby out to another dude. Uh, it's just her move.
Speaker A: She pulled a me and accidentally ordered a whole carton of them from Amazon and has just been giving them out to people. Anyone wants a yellow dot journal? Yeah. Standing out a lot. So many.
Speaker B: All right, so Justin was interviewed, but not very well. She revealed that at some point in the previous year, neighbors told her that while she was out, an unknown man called at her door and asked for her, but she couldn't remember the date. She said last year. So they were like, Okay, slightly unhelpful, but fine. They also showed her a cast of the dead man, and she almost fainted, which made them think that she did know who he was, although she adamantly denied knowing who he could be or ever meeting him.
Speaker A: I thought, sorry.
Speaker B: That's okay.
Speaker A: Maybe they took the cast mhm because that's, like, less of the dead body. The cast of the dead body, because that's less jarring than seeing, like, an autopsy photo.
Speaker B: I feel like it would be more because it's, like, the same size, maybe, because then you're basically looking at a dummy of that person. I guess to me, the photograph is.
Speaker A: Less like especially because it wasn't like.
Speaker B: A yes, it's not gruesome. And you have to remember, she's a nurse.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So it wouldn't be unusual for her to see, unfortunately, dead bodies.
Speaker A: Right. I don't know.
Speaker B: Which is weird. As to why she fainted. Why would you faint? As a nurse, why would you faint at the sight of a cast of a dead body?
Speaker A: You were about to tell me. Because she recognized him.
Speaker B: Well, maybe she did, and that's why she fainted. Yeah, but it's just that, to me, proves it more that she knew who he was. Okay, but the last piece of the puzzle was the light inscription in the back of the book underneath the nurse's number. They examined it under ultraviolet light in order to expose the indentations, and five lines of incoherent letters popped up. The second line was crossed out, and the first three, including the second, crossed out, one, were separated from the last two lines by a pair of lines with an X over them. So potentially, we've got a code, because this currently is gibberish. The message was sent to Naval Intelligence, where the best cipher experts in Australia could possibly do this, and the police allowed the message to be printed in the press for amateur code breakers to try their hand at it similar to the Zodiac Killer stuff, which they just cracked.
Speaker A: They did.
Speaker B: But it gives us absolutely no more information than we already have.
Speaker A: It was Ted Cruz. Case closed.
Speaker B: Yes, ma'am. I feel like that's when we're going to have to do a two parter on, and I think both of us should do it.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's a heavy lift.
Speaker B: It's such a heavy lift. But yeah, that'll be fun. So neither the experts nor the amateurs could crack the code. And the Navy itself determined that it was unbreakable. And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that there isn't enough of the code in order to decipher. Because the more code you have, the more easily you're able to recognize patterns and therefore you're able to make educated guesses in order to try and crack it. And this one is just not long enough for them to do that. So the coroner eventually published his results in the investigation in 1958, which is ten years after this man was found. And the coroner was finally like, all right, this is it. He concluded it with, quote, I am unable to say who the deceased was. I'm unable to say how he died or what was the cause of death. End quote.
Speaker A: Thanks, Bob.
Speaker B: Really. All right. I don't know.
Speaker A: I have no idea.
Speaker B: So the body of the, quote, unknown man lies, uh, in Adelaide's West Terrace Cemetery, where he was reburied after the inquest that revealed the case's namesake. So the tummy shoot by the Salvation Army and the South Australia Grandstand Bookmakers Association, which I got really excited about because I was like, oh my gosh, they're book binders. They're not they're bookies. They make and keep bets. So now let me think.
Speaker A: They have a long running bet of like, what's the over under that? We figure out who this guy is. Um, you have to pass that on 50 years. If somebody's like great great grandson is going to crack the code, that'd be awesome. It's going to be a race to get the answer to the head bookie, who's like, I love that Dick Van Dyke old man from type character.
Speaker B: I love that. He wasn't supposed to play that part. He just asked to. And they were like, sure, let's try it.
Speaker A: And he was like, great, I'm going to commit real hard.
Speaker B: Love, Dick Van Dyke. All right, so let's get into our theories. Okay, so mistaken, impossible identification. So mistaken identity. Impossible identity. After discovery of the body was reported, the adviser, an Adelaide newspaper, gave the possible identity as that of E. C. Johnson, about 45 and author. Let's start that over. After the discovery of the body was reported, the adviser in Adelaide newspaper gave the possible identity as that of, quote, E. C. Johnson, about 45 of Arthur Street Paint. The next day, Johnson went to the police station to identify himself. He was like, they were just making guesses. Um, I'm alive. I'm alive. I'm alive.
Speaker A: Thank you.
Speaker B: A few days after the discovery of the body, a man claimed to have had a drink with the man resembling the coroner's, um, photograph at a hotel in Glenlg, which is a town very close to Summerton Beach. On the 13 November, the mystery man apparently produced a military pension card with the last name Solomonson. That's the end of that. There was no more done in there.
Speaker A: All right, cool.
Speaker B: Two people identified the body in early January, uh, 1949, as 63 year old former woodcutter named Robert Walsh. But one eventually retracted the statement based on a scar that was missing. But Walsh is also still missing. We don't know where he went.
Speaker A: Oh.
Speaker B: There were several more positive, quote, identifications of the body. And in November of 1953, the police announced that they had received the 251st solution to the body's identity. But none of these panned out. So 251 identifications have been made of the body, and all of them were wrong.
Speaker A: It's a swing and a mess.
Speaker B: It's just weird to me that you can be like, Yeah, that's him. Whoops? No, not him.
Speaker A: No, just kidding.
Speaker B: In 1959, an inmate of the New Zealand prison named EB Collins claimed to know the identity of the dead man. That's it. I couldn't find this anywhere else. I found this in only one source, and he didn't say as to who the dead man was. He was like, I know. I'm like, Oh, okay.
Speaker A: Also, I feel like any information that comes from inmates in prison, uh, should be taken with a grain of salt gain by being helpful, um, to have information.
Speaker B: Yeah. So that's also the end of that one, but the next one is pretty promising. In 2011, a woman found an identification card in her late father's possessions that wasn't his. It was an identification card issued to foreign seamen during World War I in the US. The man's name was H. C. Reynolds, and it was issued to him on February 28, 1918. He was British and 18 years old. She contacted biological anthropologist, which I'm sorry that I did not check into how to pronounce this. Mackiege Henneberg. All right. Um, about it. He compared it to the photographs of the unknown man, and he found anatomical similarities in the nose, lips and eyes, and even found a mole in the same position on the face. But it was the ear shape that made Henenberg, uh, believe the two men were one and the same. The ear shapes are possessed by only one to percent two of the Caucasian population. The top hollow of the man's ear is larger than the lower hollow of his ear. So, like, the top feel it. The top hollow up.
Speaker A: Everybody touch your ears. Take your AirPod out.
Speaker B: So, like, the hollow where it goes into your ear was smaller than the top hollow.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: Uh, so that it's apparently very unusual. However, extensive searches have been conducted in the US, the UK, and the Australian Archives and haven't produced any other documents or records that can positively identify HC. Reynolds or even relate to him. So spy.
Speaker A: He does not exist.
Speaker B: He do not exist. So this is the identification card that she found. Isn't he cute? He looks like so he looks like a schoolboy. Yes. Um, he's baby.
Speaker A: He needs to sit up straight. Yeah.
Speaker B: I'm not sure what that was about, but apparently it matches the ear of the death man, which I promise not, um, to make that well, you're going to do it. You promise not to make.
Speaker A: That. Won't be the first photo on the Instagram at this podcast doesn't exist. Like and follow subscribe please turn on your post notifications because sometimes I share really fun things to the stories.
Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Do it. So if he was a spy, here are our theories. There are two sites close to Adelaide that would have been of interest to a spy. Mhm in 1948. One was the Radium Hill uranium mine, which was important for bombs, and the other was the Wimera test Range, which was an Anglo Australian military research facility. So we have to remember, this is after World War II, but now we're preparing the Allies are preparing for the possibility of retaliation from Russia, from Germany, although Germany is in real deep economic depression at this point. Like, they're trying to make sure that they've learned their lesson from this enormous war in order to protect the rest of the world for the rest of time. So they're building all these more bombs like the ones at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So these would have been of interest, uh, to spies who might have been double agents. Mhm therefore looking like they belong to one side, when in fact, they belong to the other. All of that.
Speaker A: Um.
Speaker B: So Australian security agencies were being reorganized at the time, which was finalized the following year with the founding of the Australian Security Intelligence Organization, which is basically their version of the CIA. Uh, this was followed by a crackdown on Soviet espionage in Australia. Didn't know that happened, but makes sense. Russia and Australia are kind of close.
Speaker A: They're in the same is it hemisphere when it's east and west?
Speaker B: No, I don't know what that is. Is it now I'm thinking about it and I'm like, I shouldn't say anything with confidence. Northern Hemisphere, southern Hemisphere. Yeah, we got that. But like, eastern Hemisphere, western Hemisphere? I don't know if that works.
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker B: Because you can't necessarily split that way.
Speaker A: There's a whole plot line. It's like a minor plot point on the west wing of we're on a detour.
Speaker B: Sorry.
Speaker A: Enjoy this. So President Bartlett has this or well, technically it's, um his chief of staff, Leo McGary has this thing that he calls Wheel of Cheese Day because Andrew Jackson, when he was president, would have a day, uh, like, once a year during his presidency, where he'd have a wheel of cheese in the lobby of the White, uh, house, and people could come, uh, in and share their out.
Speaker B: Of all of the things that Andrew Jackson ever did, that was the only good one.
Speaker A: Yeah. But anyway, so the way it translates is that Leo lets kind of like niche lobby groups come in and present their case or their topic to a senior staff member. And one of the things that Alice and Jani's character sits down with these people who are like, uh, the map that is taught in schools is like, wrong. The sizes have been messed with to make Europe and America look bigger. Bigger. And like that he's just like, what? What is happening? And that's what I feel like right now. Yes. Theoretically, like Australia and Russia are like, relatively close. Russia's closer to Australia than America, depending which part of America. Because you're used to seeing the map like this. You're like, oh, the distance from America to Australia. You cross over, but you actually go backwards around the back of the club. Go behind the map. Yes, go behind the map to just like yeah, anyhow all right.
Speaker B: But yes, they are relatively close. So this sparked the Venona Project, which was a US. Counterintelligence program meant to decrypt messages transmitted by the intelligence agencies of the Soviet Union. And the project found an espionage ring in the UK. And a Soviet one within the Manhattan Project that was building the bomb, which is terrifying to think about.
Speaker A: That's like Hydra hiding, uh, inside a shield.
Speaker B: Yes, exactly. You're welcome.
Speaker A: You're welcome.
Speaker B: Marvel. There was a rumor, um, that this man was a UK to Soviet spy, or even a double agent. So he was English, but he was recruited by the Soviets to be a spy for them, or he was a double agent for both. Alfred Boxall makes another appearance in this as he was working with an intelligence and special operations unit when he met Justin. And the thought was that he could have leaked something to her so that maybe she was a spy too. She was involved in this. This also potentially coincides with the book itself, the ruby being a cipher among a certain circle of spies. This gets a little iffy, though, because the copies were very different editions. And so the cipher probably wouldn't have been able to be worked from another edition because your typeface is going to be different, all that kind of stuff. So there was no real way to check this. There was no real way to confirm this. But it's an interesting idea. It was probably a one time encryption algorithm that corresponded to a poem, um, in the RubyAt, since it matched the quadrant format, the way that the letters are spelled out. But too few letters was again the issue. And with the book being lost now, because guess what? They lost all of this stuff, all of the suitcase, all of his clothing, the actual little thing that says Tommy Shoot on it, lost it all. Either it was lost in a move for them to transfer stuff from one space to another, or it was flooded out and they were just like, well, this is trash now, or sabotage.
Speaker A: Sabotage.
Speaker B: Yeah, I'll still see I don't know why I needed to say it.
Speaker A: I don't know why we're French now.
Speaker B: But without being able to find the same edition of the Rubyte, we won't really be able to test that.
Speaker A: You never know.
Speaker B: Uh, the Jestin's daughter spoke on a 60 Minutes investigation in 2013 and said that her mother had lied to the police. She did know the Unknown Man's identity and that he was also, quote, known to a level higher than the police force. She also suggested that her mother and the man may have both been spies. Her mother taught English to migrants, could speak fluent Russian, although she didn't disclose where she learned it and was interested in Communism.
Speaker A: The daughter where are we all, though?
Speaker B: A little bit? The daughter also opposed the exhumation, uh, for no apparent reason. If you're not actually connected to this man, why do you get a say in whether or not you oppose it? But whatever. So now let's move into family connections, because it might get even more interesting. The Abbott investigation, led by Professor Derek Abbott, because he had to name it after himself in 2009, led to crack the code and the case and hopefully use DNA from the body if exhumed, to confirm suspicions. So this is why Justin's daughter was like, don't exhume the body. Like, I opposed this, but it was like tetesty, and there's something to hide. We need something. The Avid investigation also found the real name of Justin. Her name was Jessica Thompson. I'm like, did you just squish this? But okay. She had two children, the eldest of whom she had as a single mother named Robin. Um, Robin shared the same specific ear feature as the Unknown Man and also had hypodontia, which was a rare genetic disorder resulting in the absence of one or more teeth, excluding the third molars. So it wasn't necessarily that you were missing just one tooth. It was that you were missing basically the matching teeth on either side, uh, of your mouth. So instead of however many normal teeth you have in your mouth, I think 36.
Speaker A: You, um, should know.
Speaker B: I should know. I don't I'm the daughter of the bone shaman, and I still don't know sorry, uh, dad. But it was basically that. It wasn't that he was just missing one tooth. It was that he was missing matching, um, teeth on either side. And that's a genetic at least you're symmetrical. Um, so he was missing both lateral incisors, which was only present in 2% of the general population, which is minuscule the chance that this is a coincidence that this boy and this man share both of these.
Speaker A: The dead guy had the tooth thing, too.
Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so the possibility of these two sharing each of these traits traits. Thank you. I couldn't think of the word. It's not a coincidence, because it's estimated between one, um, in 10,000,001 in 20 million.
Speaker A: I wouldn't take those odds.
Speaker B: Right. I wouldn't bet against them.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: So DNA testing could prove whether or not Robin was the son of the unknown man by testing his daughter's DNA against it. Robin has since passed away. Obviously, the body has yet to be exhumed, but the daughter of Robin is very interested, uh, in finding out. Maybe we can figure out if I am related to this unknown man. But this also means that Jessica's reaction to the bus is much more poignant. She has an intimate relationship, um, with this man, potentially, and he was the father of her son, and she is just now finding out that he's dead. So DNA testing has not been cleared so the ability to mhm DNA test him has not been cleared until 2019.
Speaker A: What?
Speaker B: In October of 2019? They cleared it. So we might have an answer soon, but it won't give us his identity. It'll just give us the ability to test. Did this actually happen?
Speaker A: Maybe it'll give us more than just him to Robin, to the granddaughter.
Speaker B: Might be able to do a 20.
Speaker A: Maybe we can branch out sideways and therefore fill in the get, like all the roads lead to this person, who is maybe this guy.
Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm hoping that that's what happens. I've heard no more word on it. If you guys have, let me know, because I'd love to hear it. But also just a kind of cute little tidbit. Derek Abbott ended up marrying Robin's daughter because of this investigation.
Speaker A: Um, I hope you wrote the paper before you guys got together.
Speaker B: I don't know.
Speaker A: Professional ethics jam?
Speaker B: Yeah, I have no clue. But I think it's kind of cute because it was like, I really want to figure this out. I really want to figure this out, too. Like, kind of banding together stuff. So here are our final notes. There was a sighting of a different strange man on November 1948, checking out from the Strathmore Hotel opposite the Adelaide Railway Station, where they found the suitcase. Ina Harvey, the hotel receptionist, uh, noticed him and said he had stayed for a few days mhm before the body was found. She remembered he spoke English and only carried a small black case, kind of like a musician or a doctor might carry, but not like the suitcase that they found. So that's a little interesting. When an employee looked inside the case, which, like, how did you look inside of, uh, the case that he was holding? All right, whatever. He said that there was an object that looked like a needle inside of it. So maybe he was an assassin. But the witness didn't pipe up until years after the body was discovered. So I'm like, I have very little faith in you.
Speaker A: Wait, can I ask a question?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: When they opened the suitcase, you said they found, like, a stencil for the merchant, um, marine. They didn't find anything through that.
Speaker B: So there were two Navy men who came forward thinking that this unknown man was their friend who had gone missing the night before, but it turned out not to be him. He was also a Navyman. And they ended up finding him, um, alive and well. He just got real drunk.
Speaker A: It happens sometimes.
Speaker B: Yeah. So there was that. So it was a little bit like, oh, my gosh, it could be true. But then it wasn't. There was also a statement that was neglected in the police report from 1959 by a man who had been on Summerton Beach the night of November 31, 948. He said that he saw a man carrying another man on his shoulder near the water's edge, but couldn't describe the man carrying the body. He assumed it was a friend carrying his drunk companion home, which that would have been my assumption, too.
Speaker A: Been there.
Speaker B: Right. But it possibly comes up with a theory of, like, if he was poisoned and maybe he was redressed. So that makes sense as to why there was sand in the cup of his other pair of pants that was in the suitcase. And they moved him to another spot so that he could die without people being able to piece things, um, together.
Speaker A: Right. Or, like, get them out of the hotel room or less discoverable by putting them in public.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker B: I don't know. Um, and then lastly, we know that the book has been lost. We know the suitcase has been lost, but so have some of the witness statements. Um, from the police records. They have been deemed either no longer required or destroyed, which I'm, like, never destroy anything. I know that it's really hard to keep stuff. I know that it's like, money and space and all that stuff.
Speaker A: Now I want to, uh, go in and add it to my will that's, like, if I die under mysterious circumstances and the police if law enforcement deems documents no longer relevant, please issue them. Like, return the documents and evidence to my family members.
Speaker B: Yeah. Don't destroy something sorry, children.
Speaker A: But if you end up with a bag of evidence, like bloody clothes or.
Speaker B: Whatever, just, like, put it in a.
Speaker A: Little fire safe box just in case the police could get a crack in the case and they might need it back. Keep it sealed up. Don't show it to your friend. Don't show it to your friends. Come on. Any child of mine.
Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. All right, so here are my thoughts. I think he was a spy and he was HC. Reynolds. He was involved in Soviet espionage and he was killed by a government assassin who gave him digitalis and allowed him to have his initial convulsions and poison reactions somewhere else. He then redressed him in clean clothes, carried him to the beach, set the scene and a cigarette in his mouth, and left him there to die. I also think he died earlier in the day. Like, I think he might have just been dying as the couples were passing. So not at 02:00 A.m. When the coroner decided. And I think that had a lot to do with the ambient temperature because this is summer. But I also do think that, um, Robin is definitely his kid because how could he not be? Those are slaves. And we don't know whose dad is right. Anyway, there must have been some kind of spy ring with the Ruby out as a cipher for a specific code mhm. But since it was a government sanctioned thing and he was a spy, that's why we can't find him anywhere. We can't find another book anywhere because maybe it was issued by the government.
Speaker A: They disassemble it real quick.
Speaker B: Yes, and the records have been few and far between of him because he was a spade.
Speaker A: Honestly, if you're using a book called The Ruby, you're just asking for a movie franchise. You know what I mean? Like, the RubyAt spy ring just sounds so good.
Speaker B: Sounds glitzy. Honest glitzy. But that's it. That's all I have for you. What do you think? You think he was a spotty?
Speaker A: I mean, that's way more exciting.
Speaker B: Well, yeah, but I mean, he could have been a drunk dude. Yes, but then why wouldn't we know his name?
Speaker A: And like, why all this blood and all this yeah. Sounds weird. Well done. That was very exciting.
Speaker B: Thank you. I'm glad you didn't remember it.
Speaker A: As we were talking, I was like, oh, she's going to talk about a nurse at some point. But I didn't remember all the fine details. I believe I said this in the last time that we recorded it, but I kept expecting you to talk about I mixed this up in my head, this case, with another case that I feel like was also in, um, Australia. Maybe a man who washed up on a beach with a briefcase changed his wrist.
Speaker B: I remember you talking about, uh, this. It obviously is not the same case.
Speaker A: It's not the same.
Speaker B: And I think it must have been Australia because I remember that day.
Speaker A: I will do that case in the future, if that case even exists.
Speaker B: Maybe that's just something both of us have heard. No, it's really funny.
Speaker A: I'm pretty sure I heard about it on Stuff You Missed in history class. But maybe that means it was solved. Or maybe I don't know.
Speaker B: We'll find out. We will definitely find out. Yeah, that's what this podcast is for us to solve all of the world's.
Speaker A: Mysteries or be very frustrated in the process.
Speaker B: Yeah, well, if you'd like to see any of the photographs, you can go to Instagram and find us at this podcast doesn't exist. And in the link in Bio, you can find, if you click the link, our bingo card and where you can find us on other podcast hosting sites, I guess.
Speaker A: Yeah, our link tree bio is a really helpful uh, or our link tree.
Speaker B: Link that is found in our bio.
Speaker A: You think we'd be better at this by uh now, also, Linktree is a.
Speaker B: Very helpful link to share with friends.
Speaker A: If you're not sure which podcast app they use, because we have a whole bunch of them. And if there's a platform that you.
Speaker B: Use that you would love to see.
Speaker A: Us, uh, on, please let us know. You can send us an email at this podcast doesn't
Speaker B: We'd love to hear your theories, your.
Speaker A: Episode suggestions, any spooky or conspiratorial stories, um, you may have.
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, if you've listened to our mailback episode, we read them.
Speaker A: Yes. And we've developed a new tagging system in the Gmail uh, yes. So that neither of us will have read the others. I haven't read any of them. I tagged yours, and I tagged mine without reading. So I think our last mail bag was fun, but I think the next one will be even more exciting. But we can't record it until we.
Speaker B: Have enough mail, so send it our way, friend. Haley Ruth. Thank you. Specifically Haley. Haley just keeps sending us stuff, which I fully appreciate. Uh, you must be a conduit for supernatural things, because the amount of stuff that has happened to you, I can't there's so much. But I do appreciate it. I still want to hear it, Hailey. Still send stuff. Please. This is not a call for you to stop. I just want everyone else to know we read them, and we are excited by it, and we love being able to hear it. So send it our way. And if we have enough, maybe we'll do another one next month. Yeah. All right, well, thank you for listening. Thank you you for listening. Shannon.
Speaker A: You got it.
Speaker B: And remember, this podcast doesn't exist.

The Mother Source:
ABC News:
The Smithsonian (good read):
THe Herald Sun:
The Adelaide City Explorer: and

Ep. 18: A Dingo Ate My Body!: The Tamam Shud Case

Emma gets real lazy this week and retells Shannon one of her favorite mysteries: The Tamam Shud Case. Luckily, Shannon remembers none of it! Was this man a Soviet spy? Or a British seaman? No one knows, but maybe we figure it out!


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